Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function?

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 value (String, 65734 characters ) Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism.  <table cellspacing="0" width="216" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="middle">Commentary :: Racism </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle Email: </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">One of the most critical issues within U.S. society, which nearly everyone agrees exists, is individual and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other --- but we rarely talk openly, especially across racial lines, regarding the perpetuation and functionality of racism. Lets talk. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: Carol Lansing To: Howard Eagle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES "If I accused the Democrat and Chronicle, and other, white dominated and controlled media of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness ---would I be wrong?" Yup, you could be wrong. It's entirely possible that you aren't as right as you think you are. I might not be as right as I think I am. Imperfection sucks. Whatever it is that you believe, Howard, you believe it with all you heart. But your incorrigible hatred, for all that is not in total agreement with you, overpowers any good that you're trying to accomplish (if, in fact, you're trying to accomplish some good). I didn't "reply all" because I figured you'd forward this to everyone with a three-page response. Knock yerself out. Carol, You are correct regarding your hypothetical idea that I "could be wrong" relative to the Democrat and Chronicle, and other white dominated and controlled media being guilty of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness. I acknowledge your hypothetical argument, but the fact is that I am not wrong, especially as it relates to institutionalized racism. If you weren't so blinded by your own ignorance and racism --- you wouldn't dare have the unmitigated gall to argue about this well established fact. Also, if you weren't so blind and ignorant, and if your mind was the least bit open --- I would take the time and energy to teach you. This concrete issue and reality doesn't have anything to do with "imperfection." Instead, it is about knowledge and understanding. I am issuing an open challenge to you --- to provide one, single, iota of proof regarding your slanderous charge concerning my so-called "incorrigible hatred." Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's. I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. Perhaps someone among them can find the time to teach you about the substance of something that you are full of, but know little about, i.e. RACISM. I welcome all comments. In fact, the more --- the merrier. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"> This work is in the public domain.</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"><h2>Comments</h2></td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Add a quick comment </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Title</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Your name Your email </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Comment</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Text Format </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"></td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. I don't know Carol so I do not know why I received this e-mail. I expressed my concern privately to Howard to which he replied " I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Howard, it wasn't my intent to slander you, especially since I sent my note only to you. I just wanted to suggest that your essays are so intense that you prohibit rational discourse. Even if I wasn't blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow, I still couldn't have a rational discussion with you. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Paige,With regard to your comments above, it was disingenuous to have posted only part of the correspondence between you and me. Thus, I have included the complete version below. From:To:Sent:Subject:I don't know Carol and I don't know you except in passing and from what I have read here. I dislike getting e-mails that were meant to be private comments and wish that everyone would just address their e-mails to those who sent the original. I think that the indymedia lists should be used for indymedia events and not for personal e-mails. Thanks, Paige Re: [imc-rochester] Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:14 AM From: Howard Eagle To: d paige Like yourself, I don't know Carol, and I don't know you (not even in passing). With all due respect, I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." In my humble view --- racism (in all forms, i.e. individual and institutional) is, or should be as much a community concern as is violence, crime, education, and other such critical issues. I believe that racism is an issue that we (the community) need to stop attempting to downplay and ignore, i.e. sticking our heads in the sand, and hoping that it will go away --- before it blows up in our faces. This is why I share information regarding this potentially volatile issue. I know it's difficult for many, but we need to talk about it. Don't you agree? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">You're right! I should have posted the whole e-mail but I only posted the parts that were relevant to my comment as to avoid bringing in comments that were not relevant to to what I had written to you. I had just said that I did not want to receive e-mails that should have remained between the two parties. It appears that you have again solved that problem. Thanks so much Howard for rectifying my error. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Carol,With regard to your comments above, and your claim that you "sent [your] note only to [me]" --- slander is not dependent upon the number of people who are aware that it occurred.I want to suggest to you (again) that none of us have a monopoly on defining concepts such as "rational discourse."I also need to clarify the point that my comments regarding your blindness, ignorance, and shallowness represent a specific reference to the issue of racism. I am sure that you are not blind, ignorant, and/or shallow about all things, but with regard to racism, if the shoe fits, you have to wear it --- unless you are willing to learn --- and in order for that to happen, it's highly likely that you will need to discontinue unilateral efforts to define conditions under which dialogue or "discussion" can occur --- regardless of how "intense" it might be.As it relates to the 'issue' of "intensity" --- can you imagine what it is like being a strong, proud, knowledgeable member of a racially oppressed nationality and cultural group, in which all who are not docile and subservient are frowned upon and constant targets of skillfully orchestrated alienation by those who dominate and control society (politically, socioeconomically and culturally)? If you will engage me for a moment --- let me put the latter question to you in a different way: Can you honestly imagine waking up tomorrow morning as a black person --- with a keen sense of and commitment to justice, and one who is not willing to be subjugated or act inferior to, or take crap from anyone --- regardless of their race, class, status, or whatever? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being constantly subjected to racism, especially in its institutional form? Can you really imagine these things?I wonder if you are aware of the fact that many researchers and doctors (of various races) have concluded that stress --- resulting from ongoing subjection to racism (along with of course, grossly inadequate health care for grossly disproportionate numbers of black people) is a major, contributing factor toward disproportionate instances of high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes among African Americans? So, we can legitimately make the statement that racism functions in ways that contributes to death among black people in the U.S. --- not only in the manner mentioned above, but in many other ways as well. For example, who is likely to have more stress --- someone who is gainfully employed, or someone who is willing to work, but cant' find a job at all, or can't find a job that pays decent wages? I cite this example in hopes that it will encourage you to at least pause and consider the fact that unemployment among black people in the U.S. is two or three times higher than among whites. Why are such grossly disproportionate numbers of black people, especially black men, locked away in the jails and prisons of this nation? Why are black people five or six times less likely to be able to secure loans from banks than whites are? Why are whites two or three times more likely than black people are to complete high school and obtain college degrees? I could go on citing these types of examples and questions for at least several pages. Do you think this reality might have anything to do with racism?Carol, the bottom line is that it's not likely that you will ever learn much about the functioning and impact of individual and institutional racism (assuming you want to learn) --- unless you abandon your apparent belief that you have a right and privilege to unilaterally define the parameters in which so called "rational discussion" can occur. If you need ground rules in order to have a discussion about racism --- that's understandable (considering how uncomfortable it seems to be for many to engage in open, honest dialogue regarding this critical issue). However, you can't unilaterally dictate the ground rules, especially if those whom you're engaged in discussion with --- are the victims and experts on the issue.Howard </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Howard, you're concerned that racism will blow up in our faces. You may have established this incontrovertable fact somewhere along the line, but I'm blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow. So tell us what will happen, oh prophetic one. Is there a neighborhood that I should avoid? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by The Voice non <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">"Oh Carol" Carol" who ever you are, sounds like you wanna be a shining star on your shallow, baseless, rhetoric excuses.May be one day this sickness you suffer from called, "generational curse" of racism, and denial, will surely be your worse night mare If you don't rush and get help. Maybe you'll even benefit from some mental meds, because it sounds like you need some internal healing on the inside, with your counterfeit thinking that this is a game or, its just Howard's imagination!! I know Howard and, sometimes we don't agree on every thing but, in this case he has brought out some valid points so,you need to get with the program or, change the channel. Your brain needs to be tamed, trained,and rearranged. Institutionalized racism is real and you need to get knowledge and understanding "that" even Stevie wonder can see that! Howard my mom always told me ,you can bring horse to the water but, you can't make him drink ,so stand on whats right, because if you don't stand for something' you'll go for any thing. Peace out </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Carol, With regard to your last comment above concerning the possibility of racism blowing up in our faces --- I have made no attempt to "establish this [as an] incontrovertible fact." On the contrary, I have only mentioned it as a "possibility." My knowledge of that which is possible has little to do with "prophecy" (at least as far as I know). Instead, it is based on the present and past, especially as it relates to concrete socioeconomic, political and cultural conditions. In order to gain insight, clarity, and understanding, you may want to check out the information contained within the following link: If you decide to check out the above referenced link --- you will find another link within the article. You may also want to pay very close attention to the information contained in the latter referenced link. Lastly, if that which you apparently believe is "prophetic" actually comes to past --- the "neighborhood that [you] should avoid" may be your own. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: "Carol Lansing" <<a href="mailto:littlecarol@hotmail.com">littlecarol@hotmail.com</a>>Â To: <<a href="mailto:heagle@rochester.rr.com">heagle@rochester.rr.com</a>>Â Subject: Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICESÂ "Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's."Â <blockquote>Your response to everything is that you are right and everyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but in league with the devil. You don't want rational discourse. That's why you can't get published. Maybe the The Man is trying to keep you down, I'm sure that's true at some level, but that's not why you are shunned by every commercial media outlet.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote>Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation. This is clearly demonstrated by your misconstruction and decontextualization of my quote above. For example, the quote contains no mention or even allusion to anyone (not even you) as being "in league with the devil." Please don't attempt to attribute that thought to me. It's your thought and your words.</blockquote>Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to "rational discourse" --- all I can do is attempt (once again) to impress upon you the fact that you do not have a right, privilege, or monopoly relative to exclusively defining such concepts. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I learned long ago to be very careful about making assumptions. For instance, your assumption that I "can't get published" is as wrong as the devil is in his attempts to defeat God. I have had more than 100 articles publish in the Democrat and Chronicle, former Times Union, About Time Magazine, Challenger, City, former Frederick Douglass Voice, former Pride of Rochester, Education Week Magazine, Monroe Community College and SUNY Brockport student newspapers, and the Rochester Teacher. In addition, I am an award winning writer (a $1,000 scholarship and a $750 scholarship). You know, if I didn't understand it --- I would find it strange that I have the most difficulty getting my material published when I am writing about (guess what) --- 'yup' RACISM. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">You have not seen anything in my writings about "the man trying to keep [me] down." On the contrary, my emphasis has been on "the man" utilizing his institutional power and authority to keep an entire race down. And the best response that you can come up with is that you are "sure that's true at some level." I sure would like to hear your explanation of the "level" at which you are "sure" this occurs, i.e. "the man trying to keep [not me exclusively, but US] down." I beg of you --- please explain this. See, this is another example of why we need to have rational discourse --- so that those among the ignorant, uninformed and misinformed (whom are willing to learn) --- can gain some clarity, concrete knowledge and understanding regarding the pervasive nature, impact, and functioning of individualized and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other. </blockquote> </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: "Carol Lansing" To: Subject: RE: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICESÂ "I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation."Â <blockquote>Howard, there is one definition that I will argue about today, "slander". In my opinion, I can't slander you in a private note. I can't damage your reputation in a private note. If you want to forward our conversations to others, that's your choice, but if you're concerned about slander, edit out the accusations.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">It seems that "arguing" (polemics) is something that you enjoy, and apparently believe that you are good at. In a sense, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble --- because relative to your obvious interest in the art and science of presenting effective arguments --- I don't want to discourage you. I guess that's the teacher in me. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to your "argument" above --- I assume you believe that it is sound. There are at least a couple of realities, which are indicative of the 'holes' in your argument. First, "slander" is defined as the "utterance" (as opposed to distribution) of false or libelous information that's damaging to ones reputation. However, even with regard to the question of distribution --- the manner in which you 'uttered' false information about me is of course via written correspondence within an open, international, forum (internet) --- in which information can be obtained about nearly anything or anyone --- simply by utilizing awesome technology called "search engines," which are still developing relative to sophistication and capability. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">There are also additional ways in which information might reach the 'ears' of others. For example, we know that the U.S. government has a long standing, well established reputation for electronically monitoring activities of citizens who are involved in working toward fundamental, socioeconomic, and political change. Being the sociopolitical activist that I assume you are (and yes, as I have previously stated, I know that we must be careful about making assumptions) --- you are probably quite familiar with government operations such as COINTELPRO. If you are not a sociopolitical activist --- then our ongoing correspondences must be purely a matter of intellectual sparring for you? </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Again, I urge you to continue your quest to become a better polemicists. However, I am not sure about how much more time I can spend helping you. I think that you may be attempting to take advantage of me --- in the sense that you have probably figured out that as an educator --- it is very difficult for me to ignore teachable moments. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Lastly, I want you to know that when I use terms such as 'narrow' and 'shallow' to describe your thinking and/or articulation --- it is not meant as an attack. Instead, I am trying to encourage you to think more deeply and carefully about serious socioeconomic and political issues such as individualized and institutionalized racism, which again, are inseparable from each other.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Your Teacher,</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Howard</blockquote>Â Â Â Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">"Ha, HA, Ha" you go Carol the educator! Oh boy simply has an problem, (its called egotistic) I find it ironic that this man constantly seems to be in the middle of chaotic nonsense arguments more less, with woman! Whats really going on? His poor wife must be a nervous mess, even dealing with a man who apparently have some child hood issues against woman and feels it necessary to prove his educational skills succeeds hers by, trying to belittle every and, any woman he come in contact with. Thats totally ludicrous to be that insecure but, I must say carol you are a very articulate woman and when I grow up, I want to be just like you. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Stephanie, Obviously, whether one is male or female, has nothing to do with being ignorant. Have a nice day. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Yes sir, you're right, but I personally think, it would be more gentlemen like to back down some times and let a lady have her way, especially when you have long proven your point. I feel its ignorant to try to prove a point to some one who's kind of agreeing with you but, in a different way. Have it ever occurred to you that one person can't argue by their self. Yes I give you that, "you" are a very intelligent Black man who tends to be very controversial at times, which can be good or bad but, you can't know it all, that's all I'm saying. The situation you're addressing is major and, needs to be put out their so, stop waisting time, get a few committed people and, make the media hear you! Howard you are a very sensitive man when it comes down to what you believe but, if every one don't agree with you don't take it so personal and just stand on what you believe. As far as Carol I didn't feel her profile fit (ignorant)The lady is very intelligent also. Thanks for your time and you have a nice day. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Stephanie, I appreciate your latter comments. However, my corresponding with Carol has nothing to do with attempting to have my way, or proving anything. Instead, it represents an effort to combat racism by teaching. That's what I do. Respectfully, Howard </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I feel you Howard,and you have skills. When ever you're ready by any means necessary, I know as much knowledge you have on the situation, some body is stopping, looking, and listening. So make your "pow move" and, I believe you can make a difference. Be blessed </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Elizabeth <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Ok, from an outsider's view, what are we accomplishing with these words? I think the ultimate goal, yes, is to bring a better understanding of racism and to help us heal wounds, misconceptions, prejudices, injustices, anger, frustrations, and many more than I'm not even aware of. However my concern is that with these strong words which with we accuse each other, we're really getting nowhere but rather perpetuating the problem. Racism is so ingrained that I don't feel Howard is wrong in saying that the D & C promotes both individual and institutional racism, but now we need to work together and find a way to work towards a resolution of the problem. And by all means, get angry, get pissed, get motivated, cry, yell, do what you have to do - all of us, but we need to have open conversations and open doors and we need to work together. We can't stay divided because we'll get nowhere. Howard, what is one thing I can do today to promote a progressive, peaceful means to start to work on racism? I want to learn, and I want to help. Thank you, Elizabeth </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I admit that I have been sarcastic at times, but I truly agree that racism is present and harmful. I have tried to point out articles that I believe are so caustic that they hurt the cause, and I'm not referring to any author in particular. I am frustrated that I can't state the slightest disagreement with a civil rights article without being considered a racist. I agree that racism is a scourge of our society. I have been called names here in public in response to private notes. I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hello Carol, I've read with interest the dialogue between you and Howard. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to take my time and really think out a useful response (hopefully). You wrote:'....I truly agree that racism is present and harmful.' That you see it, yet struggle with it (as evidenced by some of your earlier statements) is positive/healthy in terms of moving to a deeper understanding of it. I think that one of the things that happens when we as whites begin to examine racism, is that we are often unaware of the very unlevel playing field that exists to start with, and that unspoken 'rules' of white dominance and privilege abound in our society. This is not always obvious to white people, as we are born and raised into a culture in which we feel entitled to dominance/privilege from the very start. For example, think about the news media. You and I can be assured that when we read the newspaper/listen to TV or radio news, a large cross-section of whites are represented, and that the focus is not always on our race. We are portrayed as PEOPLE --- in many different ways. We see white 'heroes', criminals, common folk, corporate execs, politicians, educators, factory workers, union representatives, business owners, etc, etc. Can you honestly say you see equality regarding the images of black people portrayed in the media? And further, of all the images I listed above, how often is the image of white 'criminal' as opposed to black 'criminal' highlighted in the news media, and what message does that send to the unenlightened amongst us? What message does that send to young black youth? I am not talking here of the piecemeal pictures and little stories about the 'good' things that black people do/have accomplished that the D&C and other mainstream news media irritate many of us with regularly. For those of us who can see through that, all we see when we look at the paper is the usual token (and often exploited) black face/faces on the front page with a nice little caption. But what about news from the PERSPECTIVE of black people? What about fair and equal representation of people in the media? It doesn't exist, for the most part. One must turn to 'alternative' news sources to find those. The biggest question becomes one of basic freedom: Can you honestly say that you think black people have the freedom to CHOOSE how they are portrayed in mainstream media? Do white people have that freedom? Back to what I wrote about the unlevel playing field. Because we often don't see (or lose sight of) the fact that we live in a white, male hegemonic society, as whites we often don't have a sense of how oppressive it really is for anyone who isn't white. So when a person of color speaks out about it, some of us can find it infuriating, as questions the white dominance that we've been taught to believe is proper and correct. What we don't consider is how infuriating it must be to have someone else always making decisions about the who, what, where, when and how of your own people in the news media. And to take it a step further, when it involves African American people, the mainstream news media does a more incredible job of often portraying them in a negative light than any other group (also Latino/a people --- example see the recent D&C article that focused on the fact that people were 'behaving' better at this years Puerto Rican festival, and that fewer arrests were made by police!). Think about it: When you see media accounts of Asian people, how often are they negative in nature? I'm not saying that Asian people are not misinterpreted and exploited in the media --- they are, but I believe in a very different way. The potrayal of Asian peoples is stil a part of the piecemeal efforts of mainstream media to appear 'inclusive' of all, yet they are not usually portrayed in a negative sense. Instead, there are nice little stories about the growth of the Asian population, or families that have come to the U.S. and 'made it', etc. But do they represent themselves in mainstream media? Certainly not. You wrote of articles that are so 'caustic that they hurt the cause'. Again, any daily read of a mainstream newspaper reveals many articles that are 'caustic' on the flipside of what you see as caustic. It just is not apparent or in the same form as the blunt, 'out-with-it' (and sometimes emotional) style that you are criticizing. It is covert, as opposed to overt. Covert to some of us, that is. In the spirit of attempting to promote understanding, I must comment on the last few lines of your last post: 'I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling.' I completely agree with you that slow progress can be made. I think that part of the problem is the idea of what are considered 'reasonable social channels.' Again, what may seem 'reasonable' to you, is often oppressive to others. To break it down more concretely, I will use an example: Many so-called diversity and/or racism workshops claim to be focused on promoting understanding and elimminating racism. Yet most of such workshops do not ever step out of a white hegemonic framework, ie., the same 'rules' that govern in a society of white privilege, govern in such workshops --- even some of those workshops that are presented by black people. Those rules basically say, 'let's talk about racism, but do not expect/push white people to transcend their comfort levels in doing so.' Rarely do such workshops consider the comfort levels of people of color involved. Hence, anyone who attempts to push those boundaries is often disqualifed or scolded. In my opnion, such situations end up dong more harm than good --- they often send people of color away enraged, and white people away with a sense of 'feel good' about absolutely nothing. I raise this because I think the playing field MUST be leveled and more 'diplomatic' (for lack of a better word) in any situation where people are going to discuss racism. There are many ways to do this, and hopefully, we can continue dialogue and explore them more at length. Finally, I am disturbed by your suggestion that anyone is advocating violence in order to end racism. Where do you see that? Who is doing it? In fact, in the entire history of the United States, can you give me even one example of anyone who has advocated violence as a method to end racism? Carol, I admire you for speakling out and attempting to dialogue ---something so few whites are willing to do. Putting yourself out there is good. One of the unspoken rules of race in the U.S. is 'don't talk about it.' Another for us as whites is, 'don't say anything --- you'll get labeled a racist!' It is my belief that racism is something that we as whites LEARN, from day one in the U.S. The ways in which we learn it are complex and all-encompassing. I also believe that because we LEARNED racism, we can UNLEARN it. It is a long, slow, painful process --- an evolution of mind and spirit that is life-changing, but necessary to furthering out the evils of humanity. 'Whiteness' is a mindset --- not a skin color. Let's keep dialoguing. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hello Elizabeth, Thanks for your hopeful post. E-mail me if you are interested in discussing some ways in which we can work together beyond the IndyMedia posts. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hopefully the ongoing dialogue (above) regarding the critical issue of race --- will continue to expand. I believe it is worth noting that this topic has generated more comments than any article posted here in recent months.I would like to respond to the last few comments (beginning with Stephanie's remarks of August 8th). Stephanie, I sincerely thank you for your kind comments, which I interpret as a vote of confidence relative to my "knowledge" and "skills," particularly as it relates to elucidating the important issue and problem of race.I don't think that I can make a "power move" alone, but I strongly believe that (with regard to reducing racism in tangible ways) --- if those of us who are seriously concerned about addressing this crucial issue, work together --- we can have a real, measurable impact. I've had limited discussion with a few people about the possibility of us sitting down together, and doing some concrete planning regarding strategic, collective work and responsibility. I hope we can count you in.Next, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your August 13th comments. Even though it may seem that we are not accomplishing anything with words --- that's where it all begins. I hope you agree that it is the only logical starting point. With regard to the first step, dialogue (even if it's not initially productive) can be viewed as "breaking the ice" --- so to speak. As you're probably well aware --- most people, either don't want to, or feel (for many reasons) that they can't engage in open dialogue regarding what I call the 'forbidden-fruit' issue of race.However, I fully understand your point regarding destructive dialogue and division, and I agree 100% that, if there is to be positive, permanent, improvement and change --- the bottom line must be actively "working towards resolution of the problem," but realistically, if people can't or won't engage in dialogue --- then it becomes virtually impossible to work towards resolution.As it relates to reduction of racism, I sincerely hope that all of us who are genuinely interested in and committed to change --- can sit and talk seriously about developing concrete strategies and tactics. A couple of things that you and all of us can do today to start working on racism --- is to make conscious, serious, ongoing attempts to expand our own knowledge and understanding of the complex, man-made, (as opposed to natural) socioeconomic, political, cultural construct --- perhaps via reading (as a starting point), and continuing to engage in open, honest, dialogue here. If you haven't read it, I would recommend Dr. Cornel West's book Race Matters. Also, if we are able to assemble a group of willing souls to sit down together and begin to develop concrete strategies and tactics aimed at reduction of racism --- I hope that you will participate.Carol, the tone of your August 13th remarks above are somewhat conciliatory. I think that's good. However, one very critical point regarding open dialogue on race (as with any other serious topic), is complete honesty. Thus, I must point out that you still seem to be holding on to the idea that you have an exclusive right to define certain concepts --- such as, for example, what is or is not considered as being a "private note" or what constitutes "reasonable social channels." Again, it's not acceptable that you can unilaterally define such concepts. With regard to such matters, legitimate definitions can only come out of discussion and agreement with those who are willing to engage in dialogue. In other words, because you consider a note as being "private," or a particular approach regarding discussion as representing a "reasonable social channel" --- doesn't mean that I and or others automatically agree. We would necessarily have to engage in a discussion in order to determine legitimate, acceptable, definitions of those concepts --- as opposed to assuming that we are in agreement. Also, it is important to realize and understand that many who have been subjected to individual and institutionalized racism for centuries (generation after generation) are very skeptical about "slow progress." In terms of an analogy --- can you imagine (I mean really imagine) how your own position in U.S. society might be quite different if those who waged the Revolutionary War against what they considered as being tyranny on the part of the British --- had subscribed to "slow progress?" In the fight against racism --- we know that changing certain realities will take a very long time, i.e. changing the hearts and minds of staunch, or even not so staunch racists. Yet, as it relates to many other realities, there is no legitimate reason why change should be delayed or held captive of gradualistic belief - systems and philosophies. For example, I can't think of one good reason why strong, immediate efforts and steps shouldn't be taken to element racist policies and practices relative to areas of life such as public education, employment, lending practices, health care, etc. --- can you? Still, it's not likely that such steps and efforts will occur unless people exert the necessary political and public pressure to make it happen. I hope that you are willing to help. As for "violence" --- I sincerely hope you are correct that such extreme measures won't become necessary in order to produce change and justice. Now please don't jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am advocating violence. I am not! However, I do acknowledge the undisputable fact that the U.S. has a very violent history relative to opposition against peoples' righteous, peaceful efforts to acquire justice and equality. In any case, with regard to some realities --- I absolutely reject gradualism --- as I believe that you would do also --- if our cultural histories were reversed. For example, relative to socioeconomic and political justice and equality --- the thought that my children and grandchildren will have to face the exact same barriers, and fight the exact same battles that my parents and grandparents had to face and fight against --- literally makes me 'crazy.' Can you understand why? Lastly, with regard to Nancy's comments, and the issue of racism --- I believe that she demonstrates one of the most responsible acts that white people can engage in, that is --- to openly and constructively confront, and attempt to teach other whites. I am reminded of the fact that a white student once approached one of the U.S.A.'s and world's most outstanding thinkers and leaders (the late Malik El Shabazz, better known to most as Malcolm X), and asked him what could she do to help fight racism. At the time his response was "nothing," but as he thought more deeply about the serious question that the student had posed --- he reportedly looked for her later to tell her that one of the greatest services she could provide in the struggle against racism was to educate other whites about the 'forbidden-fruit' issue. This still holds true today.</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Concerned Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">How many people do you really think want to read on this very important issue in this fashion? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">To: unidentified "Concerned Citizen" above, I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you could elaborate --- I might be able to address your concern. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by concercerned citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">We are spending TOO much time with dialog such as this. It is this type of thing that keeps it going. This will do nothing to solve or educate, which is what we need to focus on. This breeds arguement and disagreement. What good is it doing besides feeding racism a full course meal? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">i'd like to join this discussion </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">check </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">to howard and all, several points- 1)howard is not motivated by hatred. he is motivated by what he believes in. that is social justice, and the right for all people to live a decent a safe life. to see our childdren grow with hope and opportunity. 2) we are cut out of the process not by how we say whay we say, but by what we say..plain and simple.....we can be as nice as we can be..say please and thank you all day long..it means nothing..certain individuals and institution don't want to talk about what needs to be talked about... 3)one's involvement should not depend on clever arguements and debates...do people like carol have to be out-debated before she takes up the cause...isn't a child lying dead in the street enough? weren't the lynchings of the 19th and 20th centuries enough? wasn't emmett till enough? wasn't little rock and selma enough? isn't our prison population enough? isn't the dismal graduation rates of urban schools enough? it's time to get out of the safe mode. and believe me it will be nowhere as dangerous as the conditions so many of our children live in everyday. do you have the courage or don't you..it really is the only discussion............ jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hi Jim, Nice too hear from you. I couldn't agree more with all that you wrote. Do you have any ideas on how we can move this discussion off of the internet and into a face-to-face, ongoing, productive dialogue that will result in some concrete action? Concerned Citizen, I hear you about the possible futility of the dialogue. Do you have any suggestions regarding the same question I posted to Jim? Nancy </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">hi nancy, call a face to face and see who comes. have a call to action and see who's willing...i don't see any other way..we should set somthing up that is more than a quick chat..the point would be to get the committment to act. maybe a church would give us a hand.. and sooner than latter...is everyone reading this willing?..or does this need a lengthy discussion as well? jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">New Life FellowshipPresents: Race - The power of an IllusionA Film and discussion on Racism in three parts! Time: 6:30 - 8:30 pmWhere: New Life Fellowship Church330 Wellington AvenueCome and join us for a film and living room discussion on recovering from/dismantling racism and creating a more just world for all!For more information: Call 436-0085Presenter: Myra BrownWhen: Wed August 17, 24, & 31stTo: unidentified, "concerned citizen" above,First, I must tell you that it is not easy to engage in discussion with people who (for whatever reason) won't even identify themselves, but then, I guess anonymous discussion is slightly better than no discussion at all.With regard to your latter comments above --- how anyone could possibly present a credible argument to support the idea that "we are spending Too much time" discussing racism --- is beyond comprehension. On the contrary, rarely are we able to get people, especially individuals from different racial backgrounds, to engage in open, honest dialogue about the forbidden fruit issue of race. I repeat --- rarely! "Dialogue such as this" represents the only logical, first-step toward educating people, especially as it relates to understanding the structural nature and functioning of racism. With regard to this critical issue --- there is probably no way to "educate," and certainly we can't realistically raise the possibility that the problem can be "solved" --- without having dialogue. It is also very important to realize and understand that it is probably impossible to avoid "argument" in the process of seriously and openly discussing racism, which is as old as U.S. society itself, and which has caused, and is still causing untold destruction within peoples' lives. If we intend to make real, permanent, progress --- we can't be afraid of constructive "argument," which helps us to gain clarity, knowledge, and understanding.Jim: Thank you for cutting the issues crystal clear. Again, in my view, with regard to working against racism --- white colleagues such as you and Nancy are engaged at the highest level of responsibility. I agree with you 100% that it is time to go beyond talking-the-talk. It is in fact time for all of us who claim to be serious about change --- to begin walking-the-walk. Thus, I unequivocally support the idea of a call to action. Let's try to pull together a planning group soon. Mean while, there is a non-threatening event, which all of us can participate in TODAY. See the information above. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Concerened Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Jim, What I meant by "wasting time" is that this type of communication is really not effective. So in a way you agree with me by putting out a call for a face to face meeting? I was also unaware that you and nancy were colluges of Mr. Eagles. Am I really the only person who does'nt know Mr. Eagle? Racism is a learned trait that effects every race on this planet. Yes, some are more so than others. I think that the end of racism starts at home with what we are teaching their children. Nothing beats what children grow up knowing. Unfortnatly there are people who feel differently and racism is allowed to thrive. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">to concerned citizen- you need to identify yourself.. also, the fight against institutionalized racism can't wait for all of us as individuals to "free our minds"...yes, we must teach our children the values we see as important, but what happens to those suffering now? shall they wait until future generations grow up and hopefully get in positions of power and become enlightened, aquarian-age leaders...sorry........peace, love , woodstock...almost 40 years on..time to get real................ jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy Cuminale <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Concerned Citizen, I understand your frustration with internet dialogue --- and dialogue in general! As Jim alluded to, almost 40 years after the Modern Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., and look where we are. Sadly, there are only a few of us discussing this on an internet board. And sadly, the film/discussion on racism that both Jim and I attended last night was poorly attended. That church should have been overflowing with people, but it wasn't. Jim, Howard, and anyone else reading, I believe it is time to call for a 'face to face' meeting. There is so much work to be done. People DO need to dialogue face to face, but dialogue is not enough. Action is what is needed --- all of us stepping out and fighting full force and consistently. Concerned Citizen, I believe you identified one of the most important aspects of racism --- that it is LEARNED. It is possible to UNLEARN it. Are you willing to work with us and any other interested individuals/groups? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Isn't it interesting, to say the least (now that peop
 
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 safe_value (String, 66168 characters ) Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism.</p...
 
 Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism. <table cellspacing="0" width="216" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Commentary :: Racism </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle Email: </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> One of the most critical issues within U.S. society, which nearly everyone agrees exists, is individual and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other --- but we rarely talk openly, especially across racial lines, regarding the perpetuation and functionality of racism. Lets talk. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: Carol Lansing To: Howard Eagle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES "If I accused the Democrat and Chronicle, and other, white dominated and controlled media of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness ---would I be wrong?" Yup, you could be wrong. It's entirely possible that you aren't as right as you think you are. I might not be as right as I think I am. Imperfection sucks. Whatever it is that you believe, Howard, you believe it with all you heart. But your incorrigible hatred, for all that is not in total agreement with you, overpowers any good that you're trying to accomplish (if, in fact, you're trying to accomplish some good). I didn't "reply all" because I figured you'd forward this to everyone with a three-page response. Knock yerself out. Carol, You are correct regarding your hypothetical idea that I "could be wrong" relative to the Democrat and Chronicle, and other white dominated and controlled media being guilty of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness. I acknowledge your hypothetical argument, but the fact is that I am not wrong, especially as it relates to institutionalized racism. If you weren't so blinded by your own ignorance and racism --- you wouldn't dare have the unmitigated gall to argue about this well established fact. Also, if you weren't so blind and ignorant, and if your mind was the least bit open --- I would take the time and energy to teach you. This concrete issue and reality doesn't have anything to do with "imperfection." Instead, it is about knowledge and understanding. I am issuing an open challenge to you --- to provide one, single, iota of proof regarding your slanderous charge concerning my so-called "incorrigible hatred." Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's. I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. Perhaps someone among them can find the time to teach you about the substance of something that you are full of, but know little about, i.e. RACISM. I welcome all comments. In fact, the more --- the merrier. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> This work is in the public domain. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> <h2>Comments</h2> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Add a quick comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Title </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Your name Your email </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Text Format </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. I don't know Carol so I do not know why I received this e-mail. I expressed my concern privately to Howard to which he replied " I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, it wasn't my intent to slander you, especially since I sent my note only to you. I just wanted to suggest that your essays are so intense that you prohibit rational discourse. Even if I wasn't blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow, I still couldn't have a rational discussion with you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Paige, With regard to your comments above, it was disingenuous to have posted only part of the correspondence between you and me. Thus, I have included the complete version below. From: To: Sent: Subject: I don't know Carol and I don't know you except in passing and from what I have read here. I dislike getting e-mails that were meant to be private comments and wish that everyone would just address their e-mails to those who sent the original. I think that the indymedia lists should be used for indymedia events and not for personal e-mails. Thanks, Paige Re: [imc-rochester] Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:14 AM From: Howard Eagle To: d paige Like yourself, I don't know Carol, and I don't know you (not even in passing). With all due respect, I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." In my humble view --- racism (in all forms, i.e. individual and institutional) is, or should be as much a community concern as is violence, crime, education, and other such critical issues. I believe that racism is an issue that we (the community) need to stop attempting to downplay and ignore, i.e. sticking our heads in the sand, and hoping that it will go away --- before it blows up in our faces. This is why I share information regarding this potentially volatile issue. I know it's difficult for many, but we need to talk about it. Don't you agree? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> You're right! I should have posted the whole e-mail but I only posted the parts that were relevant to my comment as to avoid bringing in comments that were not relevant to to what I had written to you. I had just said that I did not want to receive e-mails that should have remained between the two parties. It appears that you have again solved that problem. Thanks so much Howard for rectifying my error. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your comments above, and your claim that you "sent [your] note only to [me]" --- slander is not dependent upon the number of people who are aware that it occurred. I want to suggest to you (again) that none of us have a monopoly on defining concepts such as "rational discourse." I also need to clarify the point that my comments regarding your blindness, ignorance, and shallowness represent a specific reference to the issue of racism. I am sure that you are not blind, ignorant, and/or shallow about all things, but with regard to racism, if the shoe fits, you have to wear it --- unless you are willing to learn --- and in order for that to happen, it's highly likely that you will need to discontinue unilateral efforts to define conditions under which dialogue or "discussion" can occur --- regardless of how "intense" it might be. As it relates to the 'issue' of "intensity" --- can you imagine what it is like being a strong, proud, knowledgeable member of a racially oppressed nationality and cultural group, in which all who are not docile and subservient are frowned upon and constant targets of skillfully orchestrated alienation by those who dominate and control society (politically, socioeconomically and culturally)? If you will engage me for a moment --- let me put the latter question to you in a different way: Can you honestly imagine waking up tomorrow morning as a black person --- with a keen sense of and commitment to justice, and one who is not willing to be subjugated or act inferior to, or take crap from anyone --- regardless of their race, class, status, or whatever? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being constantly subjected to racism, especially in its institutional form? Can you really imagine these things? I wonder if you are aware of the fact that many researchers and doctors (of various races) have concluded that stress --- resulting from ongoing subjection to racism (along with of course, grossly inadequate health care for grossly disproportionate numbers of black people) is a major, contributing factor toward disproportionate instances of high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes among African Americans? So, we can legitimately make the statement that racism functions in ways that contributes to death among black people in the U.S. --- not only in the manner mentioned above, but in many other ways as well. For example, who is likely to have more stress --- someone who is gainfully employed, or someone who is willing to work, but cant' find a job at all, or can't find a job that pays decent wages? I cite this example in hopes that it will encourage you to at least pause and consider the fact that unemployment among black people in the U.S. is two or three times higher than among whites. Why are such grossly disproportionate numbers of black people, especially black men, locked away in the jails and prisons of this nation? Why are black people five or six times less likely to be able to secure loans from banks than whites are? Why are whites two or three times more likely than black people are to complete high school and obtain college degrees? I could go on citing these types of examples and questions for at least several pages. Do you think this reality might have anything to do with racism? Carol, the bottom line is that it's not likely that you will ever learn much about the functioning and impact of individual and institutional racism (assuming you want to learn) --- unless you abandon your apparent belief that you have a right and privilege to unilaterally define the parameters in which so called "rational discussion" can occur. If you need ground rules in order to have a discussion about racism --- that's understandable (considering how uncomfortable it seems to be for many to engage in open, honest dialogue regarding this critical issue). However, you can't unilaterally dictate the ground rules, especially if those whom you're engaged in discussion with --- are the victims and experts on the issue. Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, you're concerned that racism will blow up in our faces. You may have established this incontrovertable fact somewhere along the line, but I'm blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow. So tell us what will happen, oh prophetic one. Is there a neighborhood that I should avoid? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by The Voice non <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Oh Carol" Carol" who ever you are, sounds like you wanna be a shining star on your shallow, baseless, rhetoric excuses.May be one day this sickness you suffer from called, "generational curse" of racism, and denial, will surely be your worse night mare If you don't rush and get help. Maybe you'll even benefit from some mental meds, because it sounds like you need some internal healing on the inside, with your counterfeit thinking that this is a game or, its just Howard's imagination!! I know Howard and, sometimes we don't agree on every thing but, in this case he has brought out some valid points so,you need to get with the program or, change the channel. Your brain needs to be tamed, trained,and rearranged. Institutionalized racism is real and you need to get knowledge and understanding "that" even Stevie wonder can see that! Howard my mom always told me ,you can bring horse to the water but, you can't make him drink ,so stand on whats right, because if you don't stand for something' you'll go for any thing. Peace out </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your last comment above concerning the possibility of racism blowing up in our faces --- I have made no attempt to "establish this [as an] incontrovertible fact." On the contrary, I have only mentioned it as a "possibility." My knowledge of that which is possible has little to do with "prophecy" (at least as far as I know). Instead, it is based on the present and past, especially as it relates to concrete socioeconomic, political and cultural conditions. In order to gain insight, clarity, and understanding, you may want to check out the information contained within the following link: If you decide to check out the above referenced link --- you will find another link within the article. You may also want to pay very close attention to the information contained in the latter referenced link. Lastly, if that which you apparently believe is "prophetic" actually comes to past --- the "neighborhood that [you] should avoid" may be your own. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" < <a href="mailto:littlecarol@hotmail.com">littlecarol@hotmail.com</a>>Â To: < <a href="mailto:heagle@rochester.rr.com">heagle@rochester.rr.com</a>>Â Subject: Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's." Â <blockquote>Your response to everything is that you are right and everyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but in league with the devil. You don't want rational discourse. That's why you can't get published. Maybe the The Man is trying to keep you down, I'm sure that's true at some level, but that's not why you are shunned by every commercial media outlet.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation. This is clearly demonstrated by your misconstruction and decontextualization of my quote above. For example, the quote contains no mention or even allusion to anyone (not even you) as being "in league with the devil." Please don't attempt to attribute that thought to me. It's your thought and your words.</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to "rational discourse" --- all I can do is attempt (once again) to impress upon you the fact that you do not have a right, privilege, or monopoly relative to exclusively defining such concepts. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I learned long ago to be very careful about making assumptions. For instance, your assumption that I "can't get published" is as wrong as the devil is in his attempts to defeat God. I have had more than 100 articles publish in the Democrat and Chronicle, former Times Union, About Time Magazine, Challenger, City, former Frederick Douglass Voice, former Pride of Rochester, Education Week Magazine, Monroe Community College and SUNY Brockport student newspapers, and the Rochester Teacher. In addition, I am an award winning writer (a $1,000 scholarship and a $750 scholarship). You know, if I didn't understand it --- I would find it strange that I have the most difficulty getting my material published when I am writing about (guess what) --- 'yup' RACISM. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">You have not seen anything in my writings about "the man trying to keep [me] down." On the contrary, my emphasis has been on "the man" utilizing his institutional power and authority to keep an entire race down. And the best response that you can come up with is that you are "sure that's true at some level." I sure would like to hear your explanation of the "level" at which you are "sure" this occurs, i.e. "the man trying to keep [not me exclusively, but US] down." I beg of you --- please explain this. See, this is another example of why we need to have rational discourse --- so that those among the ignorant, uninformed and misinformed (whom are willing to learn) --- can gain some clarity, concrete knowledge and understanding regarding the pervasive nature, impact, and functioning of individualized and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other. </blockquote> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" To: Subject: RE: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation." Â <blockquote>Howard, there is one definition that I will argue about today, "slander". In my opinion, I can't slander you in a private note. I can't damage your reputation in a private note. If you want to forward our conversations to others, that's your choice, but if you're concerned about slander, edit out the accusations.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">It seems that "arguing" (polemics) is something that you enjoy, and apparently believe that you are good at. In a sense, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble --- because relative to your obvious interest in the art and science of presenting effective arguments --- I don't want to discourage you. I guess that's the teacher in me. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to your "argument" above --- I assume you believe that it is sound. There are at least a couple of realities, which are indicative of the 'holes' in your argument. First, "slander" is defined as the "utterance" (as opposed to distribution) of false or libelous information that's damaging to ones reputation. However, even with regard to the question of distribution --- the manner in which you 'uttered' false information about me is of course via written correspondence within an open, international, forum (internet) --- in which information can be obtained about nearly anything or anyone --- simply by utilizing awesome technology called "search engines," which are still developing relative to sophistication and capability. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">There are also additional ways in which information might reach the 'ears' of others. For example, we know that the U.S. government has a long standing, well established reputation for electronically monitoring activities of citizens who are involved in working toward fundamental, socioeconomic, and political change. Being the sociopolitical activist that I assume you are (and yes, as I have previously stated, I know that we must be careful about making assumptions) --- you are probably quite familiar with government operations such as COINTELPRO. If you are not a sociopolitical activist --- then our ongoing correspondences must be purely a matter of intellectual sparring for you? </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Again, I urge you to continue your quest to become a better polemicists. However, I am not sure about how much more time I can spend helping you. I think that you may be attempting to take advantage of me --- in the sense that you have probably figured out that as an educator --- it is very difficult for me to ignore teachable moments. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Lastly, I want you to know that when I use terms such as 'narrow' and 'shallow' to describe your thinking and/or articulation --- it is not meant as an attack. Instead, I am trying to encourage you to think more deeply and carefully about serious socioeconomic and political issues such as individualized and institutionalized racism, which again, are inseparable from each other.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Your Teacher,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Howard</blockquote> Â Â Â Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Ha, HA, Ha" you go Carol the educator! Oh boy simply has an problem, (its called egotistic) I find it ironic that this man constantly seems to be in the middle of chaotic nonsense arguments more less, with woman! Whats really going on? His poor wife must be a nervous mess, even dealing with a man who apparently have some child hood issues against woman and feels it necessary to prove his educational skills succeeds hers by, trying to belittle every and, any woman he come in contact with. Thats totally ludicrous to be that insecure but, I must say carol you are a very articulate woman and when I grow up, I want to be just like you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, Obviously, whether one is male or female, has nothing to do with being ignorant. Have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Yes sir, you're right, but I personally think, it would be more gentlemen like to back down some times and let a lady have her way, especially when you have long proven your point. I feel its ignorant to try to prove a point to some one who's kind of agreeing with you but, in a different way. Have it ever occurred to you that one person can't argue by their self. Yes I give you that, "you" are a very intelligent Black man who tends to be very controversial at times, which can be good or bad but, you can't know it all, that's all I'm saying. The situation you're addressing is major and, needs to be put out their so, stop waisting time, get a few committed people and, make the media hear you! Howard you are a very sensitive man when it comes down to what you believe but, if every one don't agree with you don't take it so personal and just stand on what you believe. As far as Carol I didn't feel her profile fit (ignorant)The lady is very intelligent also. Thanks for your time and you have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, I appreciate your latter comments. However, my corresponding with Carol has nothing to do with attempting to have my way, or proving anything. Instead, it represents an effort to combat racism by teaching. That's what I do. Respectfully, Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I feel you Howard,and you have skills. When ever you're ready by any means necessary, I know as much knowledge you have on the situation, some body is stopping, looking, and listening. So make your "pow move" and, I believe you can make a difference. Be blessed </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Elizabeth <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Ok, from an outsider's view, what are we accomplishing with these words? I think the ultimate goal, yes, is to bring a better understanding of racism and to help us heal wounds, misconceptions, prejudices, injustices, anger, frustrations, and many more than I'm not even aware of. However my concern is that with these strong words which with we accuse each other, we're really getting nowhere but rather perpetuating the problem. Racism is so ingrained that I don't feel Howard is wrong in saying that the D & C promotes both individual and institutional racism, but now we need to work together and find a way to work towards a resolution of the problem. And by all means, get angry, get pissed, get motivated, cry, yell, do what you have to do - all of us, but we need to have open conversations and open doors and we need to work together. We can't stay divided because we'll get nowhere. Howard, what is one thing I can do today to promote a progressive, peaceful means to start to work on racism? I want to learn, and I want to help. Thank you, Elizabeth </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I admit that I have been sarcastic at times, but I truly agree that racism is present and harmful. I have tried to point out articles that I believe are so caustic that they hurt the cause, and I'm not referring to any author in particular. I am frustrated that I can't state the slightest disagreement with a civil rights article without being considered a racist. I agree that racism is a scourge of our society. I have been called names here in public in response to private notes. I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Carol, I've read with interest the dialogue between you and Howard. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to take my time and really think out a useful response (hopefully). You wrote:'....I truly agree that racism is present and harmful.' That you see it, yet struggle with it (as evidenced by some of your earlier statements) is positive/healthy in terms of moving to a deeper understanding of it. I think that one of the things that happens when we as whites begin to examine racism, is that we are often unaware of the very unlevel playing field that exists to start with, and that unspoken 'rules' of white dominance and privilege abound in our society. This is not always obvious to white people, as we are born and raised into a culture in which we feel entitled to dominance/privilege from the very start. For example, think about the news media. You and I can be assured that when we read the newspaper/listen to TV or radio news, a large cross-section of whites are represented, and that the focus is not always on our race. We are portrayed as PEOPLE --- in many different ways. We see white 'heroes', criminals, common folk, corporate execs, politicians, educators, factory workers, union representatives, business owners, etc, etc. Can you honestly say you see equality regarding the images of black people portrayed in the media? And further, of all the images I listed above, how often is the image of white 'criminal' as opposed to black 'criminal' highlighted in the news media, and what message does that send to the unenlightened amongst us? What message does that send to young black youth? I am not talking here of the piecemeal pictures and little stories about the 'good' things that black people do/have accomplished that the D&C and other mainstream news media irritate many of us with regularly. For those of us who can see through that, all we see when we look at the paper is the usual token (and often exploited) black face/faces on the front page with a nice little caption. But what about news from the PERSPECTIVE of black people? What about fair and equal representation of people in the media? It doesn't exist, for the most part. One must turn to 'alternative' news sources to find those. The biggest question becomes one of basic freedom: Can you honestly say that you think black people have the freedom to CHOOSE how they are portrayed in mainstream media? Do white people have that freedom? Back to what I wrote about the unlevel playing field. Because we often don't see (or lose sight of) the fact that we live in a white, male hegemonic society, as whites we often don't have a sense of how oppressive it really is for anyone who isn't white. So when a person of color speaks out about it, some of us can find it infuriating, as questions the white dominance that we've been taught to believe is proper and correct. What we don't consider is how infuriating it must be to have someone else always making decisions about the who, what, where, when and how of your own people in the news media. And to take it a step further, when it involves African American people, the mainstream news media does a more incredible job of often portraying them in a negative light than any other group (also Latino/a people --- example see the recent D&C article that focused on the fact that people were 'behaving' better at this years Puerto Rican festival, and that fewer arrests were made by police!). Think about it: When you see media accounts of Asian people, how often are they negative in nature? I'm not saying that Asian people are not misinterpreted and exploited in the media --- they are, but I believe in a very different way. The potrayal of Asian peoples is stil a part of the piecemeal efforts of mainstream media to appear 'inclusive' of all, yet they are not usually portrayed in a negative sense. Instead, there are nice little stories about the growth of the Asian population, or families that have come to the U.S. and 'made it', etc. But do they represent themselves in mainstream media? Certainly not. You wrote of articles that are so 'caustic that they hurt the cause'. Again, any daily read of a mainstream newspaper reveals many articles that are 'caustic' on the flipside of what you see as caustic. It just is not apparent or in the same form as the blunt, 'out-with-it' (and sometimes emotional) style that you are criticizing. It is covert, as opposed to overt. Covert to some of us, that is. In the spirit of attempting to promote understanding, I must comment on the last few lines of your last post: 'I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling.' I completely agree with you that slow progress can be made. I think that part of the problem is the idea of what are considered 'reasonable social channels.' Again, what may seem 'reasonable' to you, is often oppressive to others. To break it down more concretely, I will use an example: Many so-called diversity and/or racism workshops claim to be focused on promoting understanding and elimminating racism. Yet most of such workshops do not ever step out of a white hegemonic framework, ie., the same 'rules' that govern in a society of white privilege, govern in such workshops --- even some of those workshops that are presented by black people. Those rules basically say, 'let's talk about racism, but do not expect/push white people to transcend their comfort levels in doing so.' Rarely do such workshops consider the comfort levels of people of color involved. Hence, anyone who attempts to push those boundaries is often disqualifed or scolded. In my opnion, such situations end up dong more harm than good --- they often send people of color away enraged, and white people away with a sense of 'feel good' about absolutely nothing. I raise this because I think the playing field MUST be leveled and more 'diplomatic' (for lack of a better word) in any situation where people are going to discuss racism. There are many ways to do this, and hopefully, we can continue dialogue and explore them more at length. Finally, I am disturbed by your suggestion that anyone is advocating violence in order to end racism. Where do you see that? Who is doing it? In fact, in the entire history of the United States, can you give me even one example of anyone who has advocated violence as a method to end racism? Carol, I admire you for speakling out and attempting to dialogue ---something so few whites are willing to do. Putting yourself out there is good. One of the unspoken rules of race in the U.S. is 'don't talk about it.' Another for us as whites is, 'don't say anything --- you'll get labeled a racist!' It is my belief that racism is something that we as whites LEARN, from day one in the U.S. The ways in which we learn it are complex and all-encompassing. I also believe that because we LEARNED racism, we can UNLEARN it. It is a long, slow, painful process --- an evolution of mind and spirit that is life-changing, but necessary to furthering out the evils of humanity. 'Whiteness' is a mindset --- not a skin color. Let's keep dialoguing. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Elizabeth, Thanks for your hopeful post. E-mail me if you are interested in discussing some ways in which we can work together beyond the IndyMedia posts. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hopefully the ongoing dialogue (above) regarding the critical issue of race --- will continue to expand. I believe it is worth noting that this topic has generated more comments than any article posted here in recent months. I would like to respond to the last few comments (beginning with Stephanie's remarks of August 8th). Stephanie, I sincerely thank you for your kind comments, which I interpret as a vote of confidence relative to my "knowledge" and "skills," particularly as it relates to elucidating the important issue and problem of race. I don't think that I can make a "power move" alone, but I strongly believe that (with regard to reducing racism in tangible ways) --- if those of us who are seriously concerned about addressing this crucial issue, work together --- we can have a real, measurable impact. I've had limited discussion with a few people about the possibility of us sitting down together, and doing some concrete planning regarding strategic, collective work and responsibility. I hope we can count you in. Next, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your August 13th comments. Even though it may seem that we are not accomplishing anything with words --- that's where it all begins. I hope you agree that it is the only logical starting point. With regard to the first step, dialogue (even if it's not initially productive) can be viewed as "breaking the ice" --- so to speak. As you're probably well aware --- most people, either don't want to, or feel (for many reasons) that they can't engage in open dialogue regarding what I call the 'forbidden-fruit' issue of race. However, I fully understand your point regarding destructive dialogue and division, and I agree 100% that, if there is to be positive, permanent, improvement and change --- the bottom line must be actively "working towards resolution of the problem," but realistically, if people can't or won't engage in dialogue --- then it becomes virtually impossible to work towards resolution. As it relates to reduction of racism, I sincerely hope that all of us who are genuinely interested in and committed to change --- can sit and talk seriously about developing concrete strategies and tactics. A couple of things that you and all of us can do today to start working on racism --- is to make conscious, serious, ongoing attempts to expand our own knowledge and understanding of the complex, man-made, (as opposed to natural) socioeconomic, political, cultural construct --- perhaps via reading (as a starting point), and continuing to engage in open, honest, dialogue here. If you haven't read it, I would recommend Dr. Cornel West's book Race Matters. Also, if we are able to assemble a group of willing souls to sit down together and begin to develop concrete strategies and tactics aimed at reduction of racism --- I hope that you will participate. Carol, the tone of your August 13th remarks above are somewhat conciliatory. I think that's good. However, one very critical point regarding open dialogue on race (as with any other serious topic), is complete honesty. Thus, I must point out that you still seem to be holding on to the idea that you have an exclusive right to define certain concepts --- such as, for example, what is or is not considered as being a "private note" or what constitutes "reasonable social channels." Again, it's not acceptable that you can unilaterally define such concepts. With regard to such matters, legitimate definitions can only come out of discussion and agreement with those who are willing to engage in dialogue. In other words, because you consider a note as being "private," or a particular approach regarding discussion as representing a "reasonable social channel" --- doesn't mean that I and or others automatically agree. We would necessarily have to engage in a discussion in order to determine legitimate, acceptable, definitions of those concepts --- as opposed to assuming that we are in agreement. Also, it is important to realize and understand that many who have been subjected to individual and institutionalized racism for centuries (generation after generation) are very skeptical about "slow progress." In terms of an analogy --- can you imagine (I mean really imagine) how your own position in U.S. society might be quite different if those who waged the Revolutionary War against what they considered as being tyranny on the part of the British --- had subscribed to "slow progress?" In the fight against racism --- we know that changing certain realities will take a very long time, i.e. changing the hearts and minds of staunch, or even not so staunch racists. Yet, as it relates to many other realities, there is no legitimate reason why change should be delayed or held captive of gradualistic belief - systems and philosophies. For example, I can't think of one good reason why strong, immediate efforts and steps shouldn't be taken to element racist policies and practices relative to areas of life such as public education, employment, lending practices, health care, etc. --- can you? Still, it's not likely that such steps and efforts will occur unless people exert the necessary political and public pressure to make it happen. I hope that you are willing to help. As for "violence" --- I sincerely hope you are correct that such extreme measures won't become necessary in order to produce change and justice. Now please don't jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am advocating violence. I am not! However, I do acknowledge the undisputable fact that the U.S. has a very violent history relative to opposition against peoples' righteous, peaceful efforts to acquire justice and equality. In any case, with regard to some realities --- I absolutely reject gradualism --- as I believe that you would do also --- if our cultural histories were reversed. For example, relative to socioeconomic and political justice and equality --- the thought that my children and grandchildren will have to face the exact same barriers, and fight the exact same battles that my parents and grandparents had to face and fight against --- literally makes me 'crazy.' Can you understand why? Lastly, with regard to Nancy's comments, and the issue of racism --- I believe that she demonstrates one of the most responsible acts that white people can engage in, that is --- to openly and constructively confront, and attempt to teach other whites. I am reminded of the fact that a white student once approached one of the U.S.A.'s and world's most outstanding thinkers and leaders (the late Malik El Shabazz, better known to most as Malcolm X), and asked him what could she do to help fight racism. At the time his response was "nothing," but as he thought more deeply about the serious question that the student had posed --- he reportedly looked for her later to tell her that one of the greatest services she could provide in the struggle against racism was to educate other whites about the 'forbidden-fruit' issue. This still holds true today. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerned Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> How many people do you really think want to read on this very important issue in this fashion? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> To: unidentified "Concerned Citizen" above, I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you could elaborate --- I might be able to address your concern. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by concercerned citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> We are spending TOO much time with dialog such as this. It is this type of thing that keeps it going. This will do nothing to solve or educate, which is what we need to focus on. This breeds arguement and disagreement. What good is it doing besides feeding racism a full course meal? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> i'd like to join this discussion </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> check </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to howard and all, several points- 1)howard is not motivated by hatred. he is motivated by what he believes in. that is social justice, and the right for all people to live a decent a safe life. to see our childdren grow with hope and opportunity. 2) we are cut out of the process not by how we say whay we say, but by what we say..plain and simple.....we can be as nice as we can be..say please and thank you all day long..it means nothing..certain individuals and institution don't want to talk about what needs to be talked about... 3)one's involvement should not depend on clever arguements and debates...do people like carol have to be out-debated before she takes up the cause...isn't a child lying dead in the street enough? weren't the lynchings of the 19th and 20th centuries enough? wasn't emmett till enough? wasn't little rock and selma enough? isn't our prison population enough? isn't the dismal graduation rates of urban schools enough? it's time to get out of the safe mode. and believe me it will be nowhere as dangerous as the conditions so many of our children live in everyday. do you have the courage or don't you..it really is the only discussion............ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hi Jim, Nice too hear from you. I couldn't agree more with all that you wrote. Do you have any ideas on how we can move this discussion off of the internet and into a face-to-face, ongoing, productive dialogue that will result in some concrete action? Concerned Citizen, I hear you about the possible futility of the dialogue. Do you have any suggestions regarding the same question I posted to Jim? Nancy </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> hi nancy, call a face to face and see who comes. have a call to action and see who's willing...i don't see any other way..we should set somthing up that is more than a quick chat..the point would be to get the committment to act. maybe a church would give us a hand.. and sooner than latter...is everyone reading this willing?..or does this need a lengthy discussion as well? jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> New Life Fellowship Presents: Race - The power of an Illusion A Film and discussion on Racism in three parts! Time: 6:30 - 8:30 pm Where: New Life Fellowship Church 330 Wellington Avenue Come and join us for a film and living room discussion on recovering from/dismantling racism and creating a more just world for all! For more information: Call 436-0085 Presenter: Myra Brown When: Wed August 17, 24, & 31st To: unidentified, "concerned citizen" above, First, I must tell you that it is not easy to engage in discussion with people who (for whatever reason) won't even identify themselves, but then, I guess anonymous discussion is slightly better than no discussion at all. With regard to your latter comments above --- how anyone could possibly present a credible argument to support the idea that "we are spending Too much time" discussing racism --- is beyond comprehension. On the contrary, rarely are we able to get people, especially individuals from different racial backgrounds, to engage in open, honest dialogue about the forbidden fruit issue of race. I repeat --- rarely! "Dialogue such as this" represents the only logical, first-step toward educating people, especially as it relates to understanding the structural nature and functioning of racism. With regard to this critical issue --- there is probably no way to "educate," and certainly we can't realistically raise the possibility that the problem can be "solved" --- without having dialogue. It is also very important to realize and understand that it is probably impossible to avoid "argument" in the process of seriously and openly discussing racism, which is as old as U.S. society itself, and which has caused, and is still causing untold destruction within peoples' lives. If we intend to make real, permanent, progress --- we can't be afraid of constructive "argument," which helps us to gain clarity, knowledge, and understanding. Jim: Thank you for cutting the issues crystal clear. Again, in my view, with regard to working against racism --- white colleagues such as you and Nancy are engaged at the highest level of responsibility. I agree with you 100% that it is time to go beyond talking-the-talk. It is in fact time for all of us who claim to be serious about change --- to begin walking-the-walk. Thus, I unequivocally support the idea of a call to action. Let's try to pull together a planning group soon. Mean while, there is a non-threatening event, which all of us can participate in TODAY. See the information above. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerened Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Jim, What I meant by "wasting time" is that this type of communication is really not effective. So in a way you agree with me by putting out a call for a face to face meeting? I was also unaware that you and nancy were colluges of Mr. Eagles. Am I really the only person who does'nt know Mr. Eagle? Racism is a learned trait that effects every race on this planet. Yes, some are more so than others. I think that the end of racism starts at home with what we are teaching their children. Nothing beats what children grow up knowing. Unfortnatly there are people who feel differently and racism is allowed to thrive. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to concerned citizen- you need to identify yourself.. also, the fight against institutionalized racism can't wait for all of us as individuals to "free our minds"...yes, we must teach our children the values we see as important, but what happens to those suffering now? shall they wait until future generations grow up and hopefully get in positions of power and become enlightened, aquarian-age leaders...sorry........peace, love , woodstock...almost 40 years on..time to get real................ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy Cuminale <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Concerned Citizen, I understand your frustration with internet dialogue --- and dialogue in general! As Jim alluded to, almost 40 years after the Modern Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., and look where we are. Sadly, there are only a few of us discussing this on an internet board. And sadly, the film/discussion on racism that both Jim and I attended last night was poorly attended. That church should have been overflowing with people, but it wasn't. Jim, Howard, and anyone else reading, I believe it is time to call for a 'face to face' meeting. There is so much work to be done. People DO need to dialogue face to face, but dialogue is not enough. Action is what is needed --- all of us stepping out and fighting full force and consistently. Concerned Citizen, I believe you identified one of the most important aspects of racism --- that it is LEARNED. It is possible to UNLEARN it. Are you willing to work with us and any other interested individuals/groups? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Isn't it interesting, to say the least (now that peop </td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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 value (String, 65734 characters ) Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism.  <table cellspacing="0" width="216" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="middle">Commentary :: Racism </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle Email: </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">One of the most critical issues within U.S. society, which nearly everyone agrees exists, is individual and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other --- but we rarely talk openly, especially across racial lines, regarding the perpetuation and functionality of racism. Lets talk. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: Carol Lansing To: Howard Eagle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES "If I accused the Democrat and Chronicle, and other, white dominated and controlled media of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness ---would I be wrong?" Yup, you could be wrong. It's entirely possible that you aren't as right as you think you are. I might not be as right as I think I am. Imperfection sucks. Whatever it is that you believe, Howard, you believe it with all you heart. But your incorrigible hatred, for all that is not in total agreement with you, overpowers any good that you're trying to accomplish (if, in fact, you're trying to accomplish some good). I didn't "reply all" because I figured you'd forward this to everyone with a three-page response. Knock yerself out. Carol, You are correct regarding your hypothetical idea that I "could be wrong" relative to the Democrat and Chronicle, and other white dominated and controlled media being guilty of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness. I acknowledge your hypothetical argument, but the fact is that I am not wrong, especially as it relates to institutionalized racism. If you weren't so blinded by your own ignorance and racism --- you wouldn't dare have the unmitigated gall to argue about this well established fact. Also, if you weren't so blind and ignorant, and if your mind was the least bit open --- I would take the time and energy to teach you. This concrete issue and reality doesn't have anything to do with "imperfection." Instead, it is about knowledge and understanding. I am issuing an open challenge to you --- to provide one, single, iota of proof regarding your slanderous charge concerning my so-called "incorrigible hatred." Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's. I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. Perhaps someone among them can find the time to teach you about the substance of something that you are full of, but know little about, i.e. RACISM. I welcome all comments. In fact, the more --- the merrier. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"> This work is in the public domain.</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"><h2>Comments</h2></td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Add a quick comment </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Title</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Your name Your email </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Comment</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Text Format </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle"></td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. I don't know Carol so I do not know why I received this e-mail. I expressed my concern privately to Howard to which he replied " I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Howard, it wasn't my intent to slander you, especially since I sent my note only to you. I just wanted to suggest that your essays are so intense that you prohibit rational discourse. Even if I wasn't blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow, I still couldn't have a rational discussion with you. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Paige,With regard to your comments above, it was disingenuous to have posted only part of the correspondence between you and me. Thus, I have included the complete version below. From:To:Sent:Subject:I don't know Carol and I don't know you except in passing and from what I have read here. I dislike getting e-mails that were meant to be private comments and wish that everyone would just address their e-mails to those who sent the original. I think that the indymedia lists should be used for indymedia events and not for personal e-mails. Thanks, Paige Re: [imc-rochester] Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:14 AM From: Howard Eagle To: d paige Like yourself, I don't know Carol, and I don't know you (not even in passing). With all due respect, I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." In my humble view --- racism (in all forms, i.e. individual and institutional) is, or should be as much a community concern as is violence, crime, education, and other such critical issues. I believe that racism is an issue that we (the community) need to stop attempting to downplay and ignore, i.e. sticking our heads in the sand, and hoping that it will go away --- before it blows up in our faces. This is why I share information regarding this potentially volatile issue. I know it's difficult for many, but we need to talk about it. Don't you agree? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">You're right! I should have posted the whole e-mail but I only posted the parts that were relevant to my comment as to avoid bringing in comments that were not relevant to to what I had written to you. I had just said that I did not want to receive e-mails that should have remained between the two parties. It appears that you have again solved that problem. Thanks so much Howard for rectifying my error. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Carol,With regard to your comments above, and your claim that you "sent [your] note only to [me]" --- slander is not dependent upon the number of people who are aware that it occurred.I want to suggest to you (again) that none of us have a monopoly on defining concepts such as "rational discourse."I also need to clarify the point that my comments regarding your blindness, ignorance, and shallowness represent a specific reference to the issue of racism. I am sure that you are not blind, ignorant, and/or shallow about all things, but with regard to racism, if the shoe fits, you have to wear it --- unless you are willing to learn --- and in order for that to happen, it's highly likely that you will need to discontinue unilateral efforts to define conditions under which dialogue or "discussion" can occur --- regardless of how "intense" it might be.As it relates to the 'issue' of "intensity" --- can you imagine what it is like being a strong, proud, knowledgeable member of a racially oppressed nationality and cultural group, in which all who are not docile and subservient are frowned upon and constant targets of skillfully orchestrated alienation by those who dominate and control society (politically, socioeconomically and culturally)? If you will engage me for a moment --- let me put the latter question to you in a different way: Can you honestly imagine waking up tomorrow morning as a black person --- with a keen sense of and commitment to justice, and one who is not willing to be subjugated or act inferior to, or take crap from anyone --- regardless of their race, class, status, or whatever? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being constantly subjected to racism, especially in its institutional form? Can you really imagine these things?I wonder if you are aware of the fact that many researchers and doctors (of various races) have concluded that stress --- resulting from ongoing subjection to racism (along with of course, grossly inadequate health care for grossly disproportionate numbers of black people) is a major, contributing factor toward disproportionate instances of high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes among African Americans? So, we can legitimately make the statement that racism functions in ways that contributes to death among black people in the U.S. --- not only in the manner mentioned above, but in many other ways as well. For example, who is likely to have more stress --- someone who is gainfully employed, or someone who is willing to work, but cant' find a job at all, or can't find a job that pays decent wages? I cite this example in hopes that it will encourage you to at least pause and consider the fact that unemployment among black people in the U.S. is two or three times higher than among whites. Why are such grossly disproportionate numbers of black people, especially black men, locked away in the jails and prisons of this nation? Why are black people five or six times less likely to be able to secure loans from banks than whites are? Why are whites two or three times more likely than black people are to complete high school and obtain college degrees? I could go on citing these types of examples and questions for at least several pages. Do you think this reality might have anything to do with racism?Carol, the bottom line is that it's not likely that you will ever learn much about the functioning and impact of individual and institutional racism (assuming you want to learn) --- unless you abandon your apparent belief that you have a right and privilege to unilaterally define the parameters in which so called "rational discussion" can occur. If you need ground rules in order to have a discussion about racism --- that's understandable (considering how uncomfortable it seems to be for many to engage in open, honest dialogue regarding this critical issue). However, you can't unilaterally dictate the ground rules, especially if those whom you're engaged in discussion with --- are the victims and experts on the issue.Howard </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Howard, you're concerned that racism will blow up in our faces. You may have established this incontrovertable fact somewhere along the line, but I'm blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow. So tell us what will happen, oh prophetic one. Is there a neighborhood that I should avoid? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by The Voice non <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">"Oh Carol" Carol" who ever you are, sounds like you wanna be a shining star on your shallow, baseless, rhetoric excuses.May be one day this sickness you suffer from called, "generational curse" of racism, and denial, will surely be your worse night mare If you don't rush and get help. Maybe you'll even benefit from some mental meds, because it sounds like you need some internal healing on the inside, with your counterfeit thinking that this is a game or, its just Howard's imagination!! I know Howard and, sometimes we don't agree on every thing but, in this case he has brought out some valid points so,you need to get with the program or, change the channel. Your brain needs to be tamed, trained,and rearranged. Institutionalized racism is real and you need to get knowledge and understanding "that" even Stevie wonder can see that! Howard my mom always told me ,you can bring horse to the water but, you can't make him drink ,so stand on whats right, because if you don't stand for something' you'll go for any thing. Peace out </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Carol, With regard to your last comment above concerning the possibility of racism blowing up in our faces --- I have made no attempt to "establish this [as an] incontrovertible fact." On the contrary, I have only mentioned it as a "possibility." My knowledge of that which is possible has little to do with "prophecy" (at least as far as I know). Instead, it is based on the present and past, especially as it relates to concrete socioeconomic, political and cultural conditions. In order to gain insight, clarity, and understanding, you may want to check out the information contained within the following link: If you decide to check out the above referenced link --- you will find another link within the article. You may also want to pay very close attention to the information contained in the latter referenced link. Lastly, if that which you apparently believe is "prophetic" actually comes to past --- the "neighborhood that [you] should avoid" may be your own. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: "Carol Lansing" <<a href="mailto:littlecarol@hotmail.com">littlecarol@hotmail.com</a>>Â To: <<a href="mailto:heagle@rochester.rr.com">heagle@rochester.rr.com</a>>Â Subject: Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICESÂ "Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's."Â <blockquote>Your response to everything is that you are right and everyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but in league with the devil. You don't want rational discourse. That's why you can't get published. Maybe the The Man is trying to keep you down, I'm sure that's true at some level, but that's not why you are shunned by every commercial media outlet.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote>Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation. This is clearly demonstrated by your misconstruction and decontextualization of my quote above. For example, the quote contains no mention or even allusion to anyone (not even you) as being "in league with the devil." Please don't attempt to attribute that thought to me. It's your thought and your words.</blockquote>Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to "rational discourse" --- all I can do is attempt (once again) to impress upon you the fact that you do not have a right, privilege, or monopoly relative to exclusively defining such concepts. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I learned long ago to be very careful about making assumptions. For instance, your assumption that I "can't get published" is as wrong as the devil is in his attempts to defeat God. I have had more than 100 articles publish in the Democrat and Chronicle, former Times Union, About Time Magazine, Challenger, City, former Frederick Douglass Voice, former Pride of Rochester, Education Week Magazine, Monroe Community College and SUNY Brockport student newspapers, and the Rochester Teacher. In addition, I am an award winning writer (a $1,000 scholarship and a $750 scholarship). You know, if I didn't understand it --- I would find it strange that I have the most difficulty getting my material published when I am writing about (guess what) --- 'yup' RACISM. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">You have not seen anything in my writings about "the man trying to keep [me] down." On the contrary, my emphasis has been on "the man" utilizing his institutional power and authority to keep an entire race down. And the best response that you can come up with is that you are "sure that's true at some level." I sure would like to hear your explanation of the "level" at which you are "sure" this occurs, i.e. "the man trying to keep [not me exclusively, but US] down." I beg of you --- please explain this. See, this is another example of why we need to have rational discourse --- so that those among the ignorant, uninformed and misinformed (whom are willing to learn) --- can gain some clarity, concrete knowledge and understanding regarding the pervasive nature, impact, and functioning of individualized and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other. </blockquote> </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">From: "Carol Lansing" To: Subject: RE: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICESÂ "I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation."Â <blockquote>Howard, there is one definition that I will argue about today, "slander". In my opinion, I can't slander you in a private note. I can't damage your reputation in a private note. If you want to forward our conversations to others, that's your choice, but if you're concerned about slander, edit out the accusations.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">It seems that "arguing" (polemics) is something that you enjoy, and apparently believe that you are good at. In a sense, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble --- because relative to your obvious interest in the art and science of presenting effective arguments --- I don't want to discourage you. I guess that's the teacher in me. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to your "argument" above --- I assume you believe that it is sound. There are at least a couple of realities, which are indicative of the 'holes' in your argument. First, "slander" is defined as the "utterance" (as opposed to distribution) of false or libelous information that's damaging to ones reputation. However, even with regard to the question of distribution --- the manner in which you 'uttered' false information about me is of course via written correspondence within an open, international, forum (internet) --- in which information can be obtained about nearly anything or anyone --- simply by utilizing awesome technology called "search engines," which are still developing relative to sophistication and capability. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">There are also additional ways in which information might reach the 'ears' of others. For example, we know that the U.S. government has a long standing, well established reputation for electronically monitoring activities of citizens who are involved in working toward fundamental, socioeconomic, and political change. Being the sociopolitical activist that I assume you are (and yes, as I have previously stated, I know that we must be careful about making assumptions) --- you are probably quite familiar with government operations such as COINTELPRO. If you are not a sociopolitical activist --- then our ongoing correspondences must be purely a matter of intellectual sparring for you? </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Again, I urge you to continue your quest to become a better polemicists. However, I am not sure about how much more time I can spend helping you. I think that you may be attempting to take advantage of me --- in the sense that you have probably figured out that as an educator --- it is very difficult for me to ignore teachable moments. </blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Lastly, I want you to know that when I use terms such as 'narrow' and 'shallow' to describe your thinking and/or articulation --- it is not meant as an attack. Instead, I am trying to encourage you to think more deeply and carefully about serious socioeconomic and political issues such as individualized and institutionalized racism, which again, are inseparable from each other.</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Your Teacher,</blockquote><blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Howard</blockquote>Â Â Â Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">"Ha, HA, Ha" you go Carol the educator! Oh boy simply has an problem, (its called egotistic) I find it ironic that this man constantly seems to be in the middle of chaotic nonsense arguments more less, with woman! Whats really going on? His poor wife must be a nervous mess, even dealing with a man who apparently have some child hood issues against woman and feels it necessary to prove his educational skills succeeds hers by, trying to belittle every and, any woman he come in contact with. Thats totally ludicrous to be that insecure but, I must say carol you are a very articulate woman and when I grow up, I want to be just like you. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Stephanie, Obviously, whether one is male or female, has nothing to do with being ignorant. Have a nice day. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Yes sir, you're right, but I personally think, it would be more gentlemen like to back down some times and let a lady have her way, especially when you have long proven your point. I feel its ignorant to try to prove a point to some one who's kind of agreeing with you but, in a different way. Have it ever occurred to you that one person can't argue by their self. Yes I give you that, "you" are a very intelligent Black man who tends to be very controversial at times, which can be good or bad but, you can't know it all, that's all I'm saying. The situation you're addressing is major and, needs to be put out their so, stop waisting time, get a few committed people and, make the media hear you! Howard you are a very sensitive man when it comes down to what you believe but, if every one don't agree with you don't take it so personal and just stand on what you believe. As far as Carol I didn't feel her profile fit (ignorant)The lady is very intelligent also. Thanks for your time and you have a nice day. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Stephanie, I appreciate your latter comments. However, my corresponding with Carol has nothing to do with attempting to have my way, or proving anything. Instead, it represents an effort to combat racism by teaching. That's what I do. Respectfully, Howard </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I feel you Howard,and you have skills. When ever you're ready by any means necessary, I know as much knowledge you have on the situation, some body is stopping, looking, and listening. So make your "pow move" and, I believe you can make a difference. Be blessed </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Elizabeth <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Ok, from an outsider's view, what are we accomplishing with these words? I think the ultimate goal, yes, is to bring a better understanding of racism and to help us heal wounds, misconceptions, prejudices, injustices, anger, frustrations, and many more than I'm not even aware of. However my concern is that with these strong words which with we accuse each other, we're really getting nowhere but rather perpetuating the problem. Racism is so ingrained that I don't feel Howard is wrong in saying that the D & C promotes both individual and institutional racism, but now we need to work together and find a way to work towards a resolution of the problem. And by all means, get angry, get pissed, get motivated, cry, yell, do what you have to do - all of us, but we need to have open conversations and open doors and we need to work together. We can't stay divided because we'll get nowhere. Howard, what is one thing I can do today to promote a progressive, peaceful means to start to work on racism? I want to learn, and I want to help. Thank you, Elizabeth </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">I admit that I have been sarcastic at times, but I truly agree that racism is present and harmful. I have tried to point out articles that I believe are so caustic that they hurt the cause, and I'm not referring to any author in particular. I am frustrated that I can't state the slightest disagreement with a civil rights article without being considered a racist. I agree that racism is a scourge of our society. I have been called names here in public in response to private notes. I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hello Carol, I've read with interest the dialogue between you and Howard. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to take my time and really think out a useful response (hopefully). You wrote:'....I truly agree that racism is present and harmful.' That you see it, yet struggle with it (as evidenced by some of your earlier statements) is positive/healthy in terms of moving to a deeper understanding of it. I think that one of the things that happens when we as whites begin to examine racism, is that we are often unaware of the very unlevel playing field that exists to start with, and that unspoken 'rules' of white dominance and privilege abound in our society. This is not always obvious to white people, as we are born and raised into a culture in which we feel entitled to dominance/privilege from the very start. For example, think about the news media. You and I can be assured that when we read the newspaper/listen to TV or radio news, a large cross-section of whites are represented, and that the focus is not always on our race. We are portrayed as PEOPLE --- in many different ways. We see white 'heroes', criminals, common folk, corporate execs, politicians, educators, factory workers, union representatives, business owners, etc, etc. Can you honestly say you see equality regarding the images of black people portrayed in the media? And further, of all the images I listed above, how often is the image of white 'criminal' as opposed to black 'criminal' highlighted in the news media, and what message does that send to the unenlightened amongst us? What message does that send to young black youth? I am not talking here of the piecemeal pictures and little stories about the 'good' things that black people do/have accomplished that the D&C and other mainstream news media irritate many of us with regularly. For those of us who can see through that, all we see when we look at the paper is the usual token (and often exploited) black face/faces on the front page with a nice little caption. But what about news from the PERSPECTIVE of black people? What about fair and equal representation of people in the media? It doesn't exist, for the most part. One must turn to 'alternative' news sources to find those. The biggest question becomes one of basic freedom: Can you honestly say that you think black people have the freedom to CHOOSE how they are portrayed in mainstream media? Do white people have that freedom? Back to what I wrote about the unlevel playing field. Because we often don't see (or lose sight of) the fact that we live in a white, male hegemonic society, as whites we often don't have a sense of how oppressive it really is for anyone who isn't white. So when a person of color speaks out about it, some of us can find it infuriating, as questions the white dominance that we've been taught to believe is proper and correct. What we don't consider is how infuriating it must be to have someone else always making decisions about the who, what, where, when and how of your own people in the news media. And to take it a step further, when it involves African American people, the mainstream news media does a more incredible job of often portraying them in a negative light than any other group (also Latino/a people --- example see the recent D&C article that focused on the fact that people were 'behaving' better at this years Puerto Rican festival, and that fewer arrests were made by police!). Think about it: When you see media accounts of Asian people, how often are they negative in nature? I'm not saying that Asian people are not misinterpreted and exploited in the media --- they are, but I believe in a very different way. The potrayal of Asian peoples is stil a part of the piecemeal efforts of mainstream media to appear 'inclusive' of all, yet they are not usually portrayed in a negative sense. Instead, there are nice little stories about the growth of the Asian population, or families that have come to the U.S. and 'made it', etc. But do they represent themselves in mainstream media? Certainly not. You wrote of articles that are so 'caustic that they hurt the cause'. Again, any daily read of a mainstream newspaper reveals many articles that are 'caustic' on the flipside of what you see as caustic. It just is not apparent or in the same form as the blunt, 'out-with-it' (and sometimes emotional) style that you are criticizing. It is covert, as opposed to overt. Covert to some of us, that is. In the spirit of attempting to promote understanding, I must comment on the last few lines of your last post: 'I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling.' I completely agree with you that slow progress can be made. I think that part of the problem is the idea of what are considered 'reasonable social channels.' Again, what may seem 'reasonable' to you, is often oppressive to others. To break it down more concretely, I will use an example: Many so-called diversity and/or racism workshops claim to be focused on promoting understanding and elimminating racism. Yet most of such workshops do not ever step out of a white hegemonic framework, ie., the same 'rules' that govern in a society of white privilege, govern in such workshops --- even some of those workshops that are presented by black people. Those rules basically say, 'let's talk about racism, but do not expect/push white people to transcend their comfort levels in doing so.' Rarely do such workshops consider the comfort levels of people of color involved. Hence, anyone who attempts to push those boundaries is often disqualifed or scolded. In my opnion, such situations end up dong more harm than good --- they often send people of color away enraged, and white people away with a sense of 'feel good' about absolutely nothing. I raise this because I think the playing field MUST be leveled and more 'diplomatic' (for lack of a better word) in any situation where people are going to discuss racism. There are many ways to do this, and hopefully, we can continue dialogue and explore them more at length. Finally, I am disturbed by your suggestion that anyone is advocating violence in order to end racism. Where do you see that? Who is doing it? In fact, in the entire history of the United States, can you give me even one example of anyone who has advocated violence as a method to end racism? Carol, I admire you for speakling out and attempting to dialogue ---something so few whites are willing to do. Putting yourself out there is good. One of the unspoken rules of race in the U.S. is 'don't talk about it.' Another for us as whites is, 'don't say anything --- you'll get labeled a racist!' It is my belief that racism is something that we as whites LEARN, from day one in the U.S. The ways in which we learn it are complex and all-encompassing. I also believe that because we LEARNED racism, we can UNLEARN it. It is a long, slow, painful process --- an evolution of mind and spirit that is life-changing, but necessary to furthering out the evils of humanity. 'Whiteness' is a mindset --- not a skin color. Let's keep dialoguing. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hello Elizabeth, Thanks for your hopeful post. E-mail me if you are interested in discussing some ways in which we can work together beyond the IndyMedia posts. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hopefully the ongoing dialogue (above) regarding the critical issue of race --- will continue to expand. I believe it is worth noting that this topic has generated more comments than any article posted here in recent months.I would like to respond to the last few comments (beginning with Stephanie's remarks of August 8th). Stephanie, I sincerely thank you for your kind comments, which I interpret as a vote of confidence relative to my "knowledge" and "skills," particularly as it relates to elucidating the important issue and problem of race.I don't think that I can make a "power move" alone, but I strongly believe that (with regard to reducing racism in tangible ways) --- if those of us who are seriously concerned about addressing this crucial issue, work together --- we can have a real, measurable impact. I've had limited discussion with a few people about the possibility of us sitting down together, and doing some concrete planning regarding strategic, collective work and responsibility. I hope we can count you in.Next, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your August 13th comments. Even though it may seem that we are not accomplishing anything with words --- that's where it all begins. I hope you agree that it is the only logical starting point. With regard to the first step, dialogue (even if it's not initially productive) can be viewed as "breaking the ice" --- so to speak. As you're probably well aware --- most people, either don't want to, or feel (for many reasons) that they can't engage in open dialogue regarding what I call the 'forbidden-fruit' issue of race.However, I fully understand your point regarding destructive dialogue and division, and I agree 100% that, if there is to be positive, permanent, improvement and change --- the bottom line must be actively "working towards resolution of the problem," but realistically, if people can't or won't engage in dialogue --- then it becomes virtually impossible to work towards resolution.As it relates to reduction of racism, I sincerely hope that all of us who are genuinely interested in and committed to change --- can sit and talk seriously about developing concrete strategies and tactics. A couple of things that you and all of us can do today to start working on racism --- is to make conscious, serious, ongoing attempts to expand our own knowledge and understanding of the complex, man-made, (as opposed to natural) socioeconomic, political, cultural construct --- perhaps via reading (as a starting point), and continuing to engage in open, honest, dialogue here. If you haven't read it, I would recommend Dr. Cornel West's book Race Matters. Also, if we are able to assemble a group of willing souls to sit down together and begin to develop concrete strategies and tactics aimed at reduction of racism --- I hope that you will participate.Carol, the tone of your August 13th remarks above are somewhat conciliatory. I think that's good. However, one very critical point regarding open dialogue on race (as with any other serious topic), is complete honesty. Thus, I must point out that you still seem to be holding on to the idea that you have an exclusive right to define certain concepts --- such as, for example, what is or is not considered as being a "private note" or what constitutes "reasonable social channels." Again, it's not acceptable that you can unilaterally define such concepts. With regard to such matters, legitimate definitions can only come out of discussion and agreement with those who are willing to engage in dialogue. In other words, because you consider a note as being "private," or a particular approach regarding discussion as representing a "reasonable social channel" --- doesn't mean that I and or others automatically agree. We would necessarily have to engage in a discussion in order to determine legitimate, acceptable, definitions of those concepts --- as opposed to assuming that we are in agreement. Also, it is important to realize and understand that many who have been subjected to individual and institutionalized racism for centuries (generation after generation) are very skeptical about "slow progress." In terms of an analogy --- can you imagine (I mean really imagine) how your own position in U.S. society might be quite different if those who waged the Revolutionary War against what they considered as being tyranny on the part of the British --- had subscribed to "slow progress?" In the fight against racism --- we know that changing certain realities will take a very long time, i.e. changing the hearts and minds of staunch, or even not so staunch racists. Yet, as it relates to many other realities, there is no legitimate reason why change should be delayed or held captive of gradualistic belief - systems and philosophies. For example, I can't think of one good reason why strong, immediate efforts and steps shouldn't be taken to element racist policies and practices relative to areas of life such as public education, employment, lending practices, health care, etc. --- can you? Still, it's not likely that such steps and efforts will occur unless people exert the necessary political and public pressure to make it happen. I hope that you are willing to help. As for "violence" --- I sincerely hope you are correct that such extreme measures won't become necessary in order to produce change and justice. Now please don't jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am advocating violence. I am not! However, I do acknowledge the undisputable fact that the U.S. has a very violent history relative to opposition against peoples' righteous, peaceful efforts to acquire justice and equality. In any case, with regard to some realities --- I absolutely reject gradualism --- as I believe that you would do also --- if our cultural histories were reversed. For example, relative to socioeconomic and political justice and equality --- the thought that my children and grandchildren will have to face the exact same barriers, and fight the exact same battles that my parents and grandparents had to face and fight against --- literally makes me 'crazy.' Can you understand why? Lastly, with regard to Nancy's comments, and the issue of racism --- I believe that she demonstrates one of the most responsible acts that white people can engage in, that is --- to openly and constructively confront, and attempt to teach other whites. I am reminded of the fact that a white student once approached one of the U.S.A.'s and world's most outstanding thinkers and leaders (the late Malik El Shabazz, better known to most as Malcolm X), and asked him what could she do to help fight racism. At the time his response was "nothing," but as he thought more deeply about the serious question that the student had posed --- he reportedly looked for her later to tell her that one of the greatest services she could provide in the struggle against racism was to educate other whites about the 'forbidden-fruit' issue. This still holds true today.</td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Concerned Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">How many people do you really think want to read on this very important issue in this fashion? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">To: unidentified "Concerned Citizen" above, I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you could elaborate --- I might be able to address your concern. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by concercerned citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">We are spending TOO much time with dialog such as this. It is this type of thing that keeps it going. This will do nothing to solve or educate, which is what we need to focus on. This breeds arguement and disagreement. What good is it doing besides feeding racism a full course meal? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">i'd like to join this discussion </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">check </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">to howard and all, several points- 1)howard is not motivated by hatred. he is motivated by what he believes in. that is social justice, and the right for all people to live a decent a safe life. to see our childdren grow with hope and opportunity. 2) we are cut out of the process not by how we say whay we say, but by what we say..plain and simple.....we can be as nice as we can be..say please and thank you all day long..it means nothing..certain individuals and institution don't want to talk about what needs to be talked about... 3)one's involvement should not depend on clever arguements and debates...do people like carol have to be out-debated before she takes up the cause...isn't a child lying dead in the street enough? weren't the lynchings of the 19th and 20th centuries enough? wasn't emmett till enough? wasn't little rock and selma enough? isn't our prison population enough? isn't the dismal graduation rates of urban schools enough? it's time to get out of the safe mode. and believe me it will be nowhere as dangerous as the conditions so many of our children live in everyday. do you have the courage or don't you..it really is the only discussion............ jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Hi Jim, Nice too hear from you. I couldn't agree more with all that you wrote. Do you have any ideas on how we can move this discussion off of the internet and into a face-to-face, ongoing, productive dialogue that will result in some concrete action? Concerned Citizen, I hear you about the possible futility of the dialogue. Do you have any suggestions regarding the same question I posted to Jim? Nancy </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">hi nancy, call a face to face and see who comes. have a call to action and see who's willing...i don't see any other way..we should set somthing up that is more than a quick chat..the point would be to get the committment to act. maybe a church would give us a hand.. and sooner than latter...is everyone reading this willing?..or does this need a lengthy discussion as well? jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">New Life FellowshipPresents: Race - The power of an IllusionA Film and discussion on Racism in three parts! Time: 6:30 - 8:30 pmWhere: New Life Fellowship Church330 Wellington AvenueCome and join us for a film and living room discussion on recovering from/dismantling racism and creating a more just world for all!For more information: Call 436-0085Presenter: Myra BrownWhen: Wed August 17, 24, & 31stTo: unidentified, "concerned citizen" above,First, I must tell you that it is not easy to engage in discussion with people who (for whatever reason) won't even identify themselves, but then, I guess anonymous discussion is slightly better than no discussion at all.With regard to your latter comments above --- how anyone could possibly present a credible argument to support the idea that "we are spending Too much time" discussing racism --- is beyond comprehension. On the contrary, rarely are we able to get people, especially individuals from different racial backgrounds, to engage in open, honest dialogue about the forbidden fruit issue of race. I repeat --- rarely! "Dialogue such as this" represents the only logical, first-step toward educating people, especially as it relates to understanding the structural nature and functioning of racism. With regard to this critical issue --- there is probably no way to "educate," and certainly we can't realistically raise the possibility that the problem can be "solved" --- without having dialogue. It is also very important to realize and understand that it is probably impossible to avoid "argument" in the process of seriously and openly discussing racism, which is as old as U.S. society itself, and which has caused, and is still causing untold destruction within peoples' lives. If we intend to make real, permanent, progress --- we can't be afraid of constructive "argument," which helps us to gain clarity, knowledge, and understanding.Jim: Thank you for cutting the issues crystal clear. Again, in my view, with regard to working against racism --- white colleagues such as you and Nancy are engaged at the highest level of responsibility. I agree with you 100% that it is time to go beyond talking-the-talk. It is in fact time for all of us who claim to be serious about change --- to begin walking-the-walk. Thus, I unequivocally support the idea of a call to action. Let's try to pull together a planning group soon. Mean while, there is a non-threatening event, which all of us can participate in TODAY. See the information above. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Concerened Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Jim, What I meant by "wasting time" is that this type of communication is really not effective. So in a way you agree with me by putting out a call for a face to face meeting? I was also unaware that you and nancy were colluges of Mr. Eagles. Am I really the only person who does'nt know Mr. Eagle? Racism is a learned trait that effects every race on this planet. Yes, some are more so than others. I think that the end of racism starts at home with what we are teaching their children. Nothing beats what children grow up knowing. Unfortnatly there are people who feel differently and racism is allowed to thrive. </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">to concerned citizen- you need to identify yourself.. also, the fight against institutionalized racism can't wait for all of us as individuals to "free our minds"...yes, we must teach our children the values we see as important, but what happens to those suffering now? shall they wait until future generations grow up and hopefully get in positions of power and become enlightened, aquarian-age leaders...sorry........peace, love , woodstock...almost 40 years on..time to get real................ jim greco </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Nancy Cuminale <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Concerned Citizen, I understand your frustration with internet dialogue --- and dialogue in general! As Jim alluded to, almost 40 years after the Modern Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., and look where we are. Sadly, there are only a few of us discussing this on an internet board. And sadly, the film/discussion on racism that both Jim and I attended last night was poorly attended. That church should have been overflowing with people, but it wasn't. Jim, Howard, and anyone else reading, I believe it is time to call for a 'face to face' meeting. There is so much work to be done. People DO need to dialogue face to face, but dialogue is not enough. Action is what is needed --- all of us stepping out and fighting full force and consistently. Concerned Citizen, I believe you identified one of the most important aspects of racism --- that it is LEARNED. It is possible to UNLEARN it. Are you willing to work with us and any other interested individuals/groups? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td></tr><tr><td valign="middle">Isn't it interesting, to say the least (now that peop
 
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 safe_value (String, 66168 characters ) Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism.</p...
 
 Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism. <table cellspacing="0" width="216" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Commentary :: Racism </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle Email: </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> One of the most critical issues within U.S. society, which nearly everyone agrees exists, is individual and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other --- but we rarely talk openly, especially across racial lines, regarding the perpetuation and functionality of racism. Lets talk. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: Carol Lansing To: Howard Eagle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES "If I accused the Democrat and Chronicle, and other, white dominated and controlled media of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness ---would I be wrong?" Yup, you could be wrong. It's entirely possible that you aren't as right as you think you are. I might not be as right as I think I am. Imperfection sucks. Whatever it is that you believe, Howard, you believe it with all you heart. But your incorrigible hatred, for all that is not in total agreement with you, overpowers any good that you're trying to accomplish (if, in fact, you're trying to accomplish some good). I didn't "reply all" because I figured you'd forward this to everyone with a three-page response. Knock yerself out. Carol, You are correct regarding your hypothetical idea that I "could be wrong" relative to the Democrat and Chronicle, and other white dominated and controlled media being guilty of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness. I acknowledge your hypothetical argument, but the fact is that I am not wrong, especially as it relates to institutionalized racism. If you weren't so blinded by your own ignorance and racism --- you wouldn't dare have the unmitigated gall to argue about this well established fact. Also, if you weren't so blind and ignorant, and if your mind was the least bit open --- I would take the time and energy to teach you. This concrete issue and reality doesn't have anything to do with "imperfection." Instead, it is about knowledge and understanding. I am issuing an open challenge to you --- to provide one, single, iota of proof regarding your slanderous charge concerning my so-called "incorrigible hatred." Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's. I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. Perhaps someone among them can find the time to teach you about the substance of something that you are full of, but know little about, i.e. RACISM. I welcome all comments. In fact, the more --- the merrier. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> This work is in the public domain. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> <h2>Comments</h2> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Add a quick comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Title </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Your name Your email </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Text Format </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. I don't know Carol so I do not know why I received this e-mail. I expressed my concern privately to Howard to which he replied " I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, it wasn't my intent to slander you, especially since I sent my note only to you. I just wanted to suggest that your essays are so intense that you prohibit rational discourse. Even if I wasn't blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow, I still couldn't have a rational discussion with you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Paige, With regard to your comments above, it was disingenuous to have posted only part of the correspondence between you and me. Thus, I have included the complete version below. From: To: Sent: Subject: I don't know Carol and I don't know you except in passing and from what I have read here. I dislike getting e-mails that were meant to be private comments and wish that everyone would just address their e-mails to those who sent the original. I think that the indymedia lists should be used for indymedia events and not for personal e-mails. Thanks, Paige Re: [imc-rochester] Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:14 AM From: Howard Eagle To: d paige Like yourself, I don't know Carol, and I don't know you (not even in passing). With all due respect, I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." In my humble view --- racism (in all forms, i.e. individual and institutional) is, or should be as much a community concern as is violence, crime, education, and other such critical issues. I believe that racism is an issue that we (the community) need to stop attempting to downplay and ignore, i.e. sticking our heads in the sand, and hoping that it will go away --- before it blows up in our faces. This is why I share information regarding this potentially volatile issue. I know it's difficult for many, but we need to talk about it. Don't you agree? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> You're right! I should have posted the whole e-mail but I only posted the parts that were relevant to my comment as to avoid bringing in comments that were not relevant to to what I had written to you. I had just said that I did not want to receive e-mails that should have remained between the two parties. It appears that you have again solved that problem. Thanks so much Howard for rectifying my error. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your comments above, and your claim that you "sent [your] note only to [me]" --- slander is not dependent upon the number of people who are aware that it occurred. I want to suggest to you (again) that none of us have a monopoly on defining concepts such as "rational discourse." I also need to clarify the point that my comments regarding your blindness, ignorance, and shallowness represent a specific reference to the issue of racism. I am sure that you are not blind, ignorant, and/or shallow about all things, but with regard to racism, if the shoe fits, you have to wear it --- unless you are willing to learn --- and in order for that to happen, it's highly likely that you will need to discontinue unilateral efforts to define conditions under which dialogue or "discussion" can occur --- regardless of how "intense" it might be. As it relates to the 'issue' of "intensity" --- can you imagine what it is like being a strong, proud, knowledgeable member of a racially oppressed nationality and cultural group, in which all who are not docile and subservient are frowned upon and constant targets of skillfully orchestrated alienation by those who dominate and control society (politically, socioeconomically and culturally)? If you will engage me for a moment --- let me put the latter question to you in a different way: Can you honestly imagine waking up tomorrow morning as a black person --- with a keen sense of and commitment to justice, and one who is not willing to be subjugated or act inferior to, or take crap from anyone --- regardless of their race, class, status, or whatever? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being constantly subjected to racism, especially in its institutional form? Can you really imagine these things? I wonder if you are aware of the fact that many researchers and doctors (of various races) have concluded that stress --- resulting from ongoing subjection to racism (along with of course, grossly inadequate health care for grossly disproportionate numbers of black people) is a major, contributing factor toward disproportionate instances of high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes among African Americans? So, we can legitimately make the statement that racism functions in ways that contributes to death among black people in the U.S. --- not only in the manner mentioned above, but in many other ways as well. For example, who is likely to have more stress --- someone who is gainfully employed, or someone who is willing to work, but cant' find a job at all, or can't find a job that pays decent wages? I cite this example in hopes that it will encourage you to at least pause and consider the fact that unemployment among black people in the U.S. is two or three times higher than among whites. Why are such grossly disproportionate numbers of black people, especially black men, locked away in the jails and prisons of this nation? Why are black people five or six times less likely to be able to secure loans from banks than whites are? Why are whites two or three times more likely than black people are to complete high school and obtain college degrees? I could go on citing these types of examples and questions for at least several pages. Do you think this reality might have anything to do with racism? Carol, the bottom line is that it's not likely that you will ever learn much about the functioning and impact of individual and institutional racism (assuming you want to learn) --- unless you abandon your apparent belief that you have a right and privilege to unilaterally define the parameters in which so called "rational discussion" can occur. If you need ground rules in order to have a discussion about racism --- that's understandable (considering how uncomfortable it seems to be for many to engage in open, honest dialogue regarding this critical issue). However, you can't unilaterally dictate the ground rules, especially if those whom you're engaged in discussion with --- are the victims and experts on the issue. Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, you're concerned that racism will blow up in our faces. You may have established this incontrovertable fact somewhere along the line, but I'm blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow. So tell us what will happen, oh prophetic one. Is there a neighborhood that I should avoid? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by The Voice non <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Oh Carol" Carol" who ever you are, sounds like you wanna be a shining star on your shallow, baseless, rhetoric excuses.May be one day this sickness you suffer from called, "generational curse" of racism, and denial, will surely be your worse night mare If you don't rush and get help. Maybe you'll even benefit from some mental meds, because it sounds like you need some internal healing on the inside, with your counterfeit thinking that this is a game or, its just Howard's imagination!! I know Howard and, sometimes we don't agree on every thing but, in this case he has brought out some valid points so,you need to get with the program or, change the channel. Your brain needs to be tamed, trained,and rearranged. Institutionalized racism is real and you need to get knowledge and understanding "that" even Stevie wonder can see that! Howard my mom always told me ,you can bring horse to the water but, you can't make him drink ,so stand on whats right, because if you don't stand for something' you'll go for any thing. Peace out </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your last comment above concerning the possibility of racism blowing up in our faces --- I have made no attempt to "establish this [as an] incontrovertible fact." On the contrary, I have only mentioned it as a "possibility." My knowledge of that which is possible has little to do with "prophecy" (at least as far as I know). Instead, it is based on the present and past, especially as it relates to concrete socioeconomic, political and cultural conditions. In order to gain insight, clarity, and understanding, you may want to check out the information contained within the following link: If you decide to check out the above referenced link --- you will find another link within the article. You may also want to pay very close attention to the information contained in the latter referenced link. Lastly, if that which you apparently believe is "prophetic" actually comes to past --- the "neighborhood that [you] should avoid" may be your own. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" < <a href="mailto:littlecarol@hotmail.com">littlecarol@hotmail.com</a>>Â To: < <a href="mailto:heagle@rochester.rr.com">heagle@rochester.rr.com</a>>Â Subject: Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's." Â <blockquote>Your response to everything is that you are right and everyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but in league with the devil. You don't want rational discourse. That's why you can't get published. Maybe the The Man is trying to keep you down, I'm sure that's true at some level, but that's not why you are shunned by every commercial media outlet.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation. This is clearly demonstrated by your misconstruction and decontextualization of my quote above. For example, the quote contains no mention or even allusion to anyone (not even you) as being "in league with the devil." Please don't attempt to attribute that thought to me. It's your thought and your words.</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to "rational discourse" --- all I can do is attempt (once again) to impress upon you the fact that you do not have a right, privilege, or monopoly relative to exclusively defining such concepts. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I learned long ago to be very careful about making assumptions. For instance, your assumption that I "can't get published" is as wrong as the devil is in his attempts to defeat God. I have had more than 100 articles publish in the Democrat and Chronicle, former Times Union, About Time Magazine, Challenger, City, former Frederick Douglass Voice, former Pride of Rochester, Education Week Magazine, Monroe Community College and SUNY Brockport student newspapers, and the Rochester Teacher. In addition, I am an award winning writer (a $1,000 scholarship and a $750 scholarship). You know, if I didn't understand it --- I would find it strange that I have the most difficulty getting my material published when I am writing about (guess what) --- 'yup' RACISM. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">You have not seen anything in my writings about "the man trying to keep [me] down." On the contrary, my emphasis has been on "the man" utilizing his institutional power and authority to keep an entire race down. And the best response that you can come up with is that you are "sure that's true at some level." I sure would like to hear your explanation of the "level" at which you are "sure" this occurs, i.e. "the man trying to keep [not me exclusively, but US] down." I beg of you --- please explain this. See, this is another example of why we need to have rational discourse --- so that those among the ignorant, uninformed and misinformed (whom are willing to learn) --- can gain some clarity, concrete knowledge and understanding regarding the pervasive nature, impact, and functioning of individualized and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other. </blockquote> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" To: Subject: RE: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation." Â <blockquote>Howard, there is one definition that I will argue about today, "slander". In my opinion, I can't slander you in a private note. I can't damage your reputation in a private note. If you want to forward our conversations to others, that's your choice, but if you're concerned about slander, edit out the accusations.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">It seems that "arguing" (polemics) is something that you enjoy, and apparently believe that you are good at. In a sense, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble --- because relative to your obvious interest in the art and science of presenting effective arguments --- I don't want to discourage you. I guess that's the teacher in me. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to your "argument" above --- I assume you believe that it is sound. There are at least a couple of realities, which are indicative of the 'holes' in your argument. First, "slander" is defined as the "utterance" (as opposed to distribution) of false or libelous information that's damaging to ones reputation. However, even with regard to the question of distribution --- the manner in which you 'uttered' false information about me is of course via written correspondence within an open, international, forum (internet) --- in which information can be obtained about nearly anything or anyone --- simply by utilizing awesome technology called "search engines," which are still developing relative to sophistication and capability. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">There are also additional ways in which information might reach the 'ears' of others. For example, we know that the U.S. government has a long standing, well established reputation for electronically monitoring activities of citizens who are involved in working toward fundamental, socioeconomic, and political change. Being the sociopolitical activist that I assume you are (and yes, as I have previously stated, I know that we must be careful about making assumptions) --- you are probably quite familiar with government operations such as COINTELPRO. If you are not a sociopolitical activist --- then our ongoing correspondences must be purely a matter of intellectual sparring for you? </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Again, I urge you to continue your quest to become a better polemicists. However, I am not sure about how much more time I can spend helping you. I think that you may be attempting to take advantage of me --- in the sense that you have probably figured out that as an educator --- it is very difficult for me to ignore teachable moments. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Lastly, I want you to know that when I use terms such as 'narrow' and 'shallow' to describe your thinking and/or articulation --- it is not meant as an attack. Instead, I am trying to encourage you to think more deeply and carefully about serious socioeconomic and political issues such as individualized and institutionalized racism, which again, are inseparable from each other.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Your Teacher,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Howard</blockquote> Â Â Â Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Ha, HA, Ha" you go Carol the educator! Oh boy simply has an problem, (its called egotistic) I find it ironic that this man constantly seems to be in the middle of chaotic nonsense arguments more less, with woman! Whats really going on? His poor wife must be a nervous mess, even dealing with a man who apparently have some child hood issues against woman and feels it necessary to prove his educational skills succeeds hers by, trying to belittle every and, any woman he come in contact with. Thats totally ludicrous to be that insecure but, I must say carol you are a very articulate woman and when I grow up, I want to be just like you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, Obviously, whether one is male or female, has nothing to do with being ignorant. Have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Yes sir, you're right, but I personally think, it would be more gentlemen like to back down some times and let a lady have her way, especially when you have long proven your point. I feel its ignorant to try to prove a point to some one who's kind of agreeing with you but, in a different way. Have it ever occurred to you that one person can't argue by their self. Yes I give you that, "you" are a very intelligent Black man who tends to be very controversial at times, which can be good or bad but, you can't know it all, that's all I'm saying. The situation you're addressing is major and, needs to be put out their so, stop waisting time, get a few committed people and, make the media hear you! Howard you are a very sensitive man when it comes down to what you believe but, if every one don't agree with you don't take it so personal and just stand on what you believe. As far as Carol I didn't feel her profile fit (ignorant)The lady is very intelligent also. Thanks for your time and you have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, I appreciate your latter comments. However, my corresponding with Carol has nothing to do with attempting to have my way, or proving anything. Instead, it represents an effort to combat racism by teaching. That's what I do. Respectfully, Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I feel you Howard,and you have skills. When ever you're ready by any means necessary, I know as much knowledge you have on the situation, some body is stopping, looking, and listening. So make your "pow move" and, I believe you can make a difference. Be blessed </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Elizabeth <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Ok, from an outsider's view, what are we accomplishing with these words? I think the ultimate goal, yes, is to bring a better understanding of racism and to help us heal wounds, misconceptions, prejudices, injustices, anger, frustrations, and many more than I'm not even aware of. However my concern is that with these strong words which with we accuse each other, we're really getting nowhere but rather perpetuating the problem. Racism is so ingrained that I don't feel Howard is wrong in saying that the D & C promotes both individual and institutional racism, but now we need to work together and find a way to work towards a resolution of the problem. And by all means, get angry, get pissed, get motivated, cry, yell, do what you have to do - all of us, but we need to have open conversations and open doors and we need to work together. We can't stay divided because we'll get nowhere. Howard, what is one thing I can do today to promote a progressive, peaceful means to start to work on racism? I want to learn, and I want to help. Thank you, Elizabeth </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I admit that I have been sarcastic at times, but I truly agree that racism is present and harmful. I have tried to point out articles that I believe are so caustic that they hurt the cause, and I'm not referring to any author in particular. I am frustrated that I can't state the slightest disagreement with a civil rights article without being considered a racist. I agree that racism is a scourge of our society. I have been called names here in public in response to private notes. I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Carol, I've read with interest the dialogue between you and Howard. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to take my time and really think out a useful response (hopefully). You wrote:'....I truly agree that racism is present and harmful.' That you see it, yet struggle with it (as evidenced by some of your earlier statements) is positive/healthy in terms of moving to a deeper understanding of it. I think that one of the things that happens when we as whites begin to examine racism, is that we are often unaware of the very unlevel playing field that exists to start with, and that unspoken 'rules' of white dominance and privilege abound in our society. This is not always obvious to white people, as we are born and raised into a culture in which we feel entitled to dominance/privilege from the very start. For example, think about the news media. You and I can be assured that when we read the newspaper/listen to TV or radio news, a large cross-section of whites are represented, and that the focus is not always on our race. We are portrayed as PEOPLE --- in many different ways. We see white 'heroes', criminals, common folk, corporate execs, politicians, educators, factory workers, union representatives, business owners, etc, etc. Can you honestly say you see equality regarding the images of black people portrayed in the media? And further, of all the images I listed above, how often is the image of white 'criminal' as opposed to black 'criminal' highlighted in the news media, and what message does that send to the unenlightened amongst us? What message does that send to young black youth? I am not talking here of the piecemeal pictures and little stories about the 'good' things that black people do/have accomplished that the D&C and other mainstream news media irritate many of us with regularly. For those of us who can see through that, all we see when we look at the paper is the usual token (and often exploited) black face/faces on the front page with a nice little caption. But what about news from the PERSPECTIVE of black people? What about fair and equal representation of people in the media? It doesn't exist, for the most part. One must turn to 'alternative' news sources to find those. The biggest question becomes one of basic freedom: Can you honestly say that you think black people have the freedom to CHOOSE how they are portrayed in mainstream media? Do white people have that freedom? Back to what I wrote about the unlevel playing field. Because we often don't see (or lose sight of) the fact that we live in a white, male hegemonic society, as whites we often don't have a sense of how oppressive it really is for anyone who isn't white. So when a person of color speaks out about it, some of us can find it infuriating, as questions the white dominance that we've been taught to believe is proper and correct. What we don't consider is how infuriating it must be to have someone else always making decisions about the who, what, where, when and how of your own people in the news media. And to take it a step further, when it involves African American people, the mainstream news media does a more incredible job of often portraying them in a negative light than any other group (also Latino/a people --- example see the recent D&C article that focused on the fact that people were 'behaving' better at this years Puerto Rican festival, and that fewer arrests were made by police!). Think about it: When you see media accounts of Asian people, how often are they negative in nature? I'm not saying that Asian people are not misinterpreted and exploited in the media --- they are, but I believe in a very different way. The potrayal of Asian peoples is stil a part of the piecemeal efforts of mainstream media to appear 'inclusive' of all, yet they are not usually portrayed in a negative sense. Instead, there are nice little stories about the growth of the Asian population, or families that have come to the U.S. and 'made it', etc. But do they represent themselves in mainstream media? Certainly not. You wrote of articles that are so 'caustic that they hurt the cause'. Again, any daily read of a mainstream newspaper reveals many articles that are 'caustic' on the flipside of what you see as caustic. It just is not apparent or in the same form as the blunt, 'out-with-it' (and sometimes emotional) style that you are criticizing. It is covert, as opposed to overt. Covert to some of us, that is. In the spirit of attempting to promote understanding, I must comment on the last few lines of your last post: 'I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling.' I completely agree with you that slow progress can be made. I think that part of the problem is the idea of what are considered 'reasonable social channels.' Again, what may seem 'reasonable' to you, is often oppressive to others. To break it down more concretely, I will use an example: Many so-called diversity and/or racism workshops claim to be focused on promoting understanding and elimminating racism. Yet most of such workshops do not ever step out of a white hegemonic framework, ie., the same 'rules' that govern in a society of white privilege, govern in such workshops --- even some of those workshops that are presented by black people. Those rules basically say, 'let's talk about racism, but do not expect/push white people to transcend their comfort levels in doing so.' Rarely do such workshops consider the comfort levels of people of color involved. Hence, anyone who attempts to push those boundaries is often disqualifed or scolded. In my opnion, such situations end up dong more harm than good --- they often send people of color away enraged, and white people away with a sense of 'feel good' about absolutely nothing. I raise this because I think the playing field MUST be leveled and more 'diplomatic' (for lack of a better word) in any situation where people are going to discuss racism. There are many ways to do this, and hopefully, we can continue dialogue and explore them more at length. Finally, I am disturbed by your suggestion that anyone is advocating violence in order to end racism. Where do you see that? Who is doing it? In fact, in the entire history of the United States, can you give me even one example of anyone who has advocated violence as a method to end racism? Carol, I admire you for speakling out and attempting to dialogue ---something so few whites are willing to do. Putting yourself out there is good. One of the unspoken rules of race in the U.S. is 'don't talk about it.' Another for us as whites is, 'don't say anything --- you'll get labeled a racist!' It is my belief that racism is something that we as whites LEARN, from day one in the U.S. The ways in which we learn it are complex and all-encompassing. I also believe that because we LEARNED racism, we can UNLEARN it. It is a long, slow, painful process --- an evolution of mind and spirit that is life-changing, but necessary to furthering out the evils of humanity. 'Whiteness' is a mindset --- not a skin color. Let's keep dialoguing. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Elizabeth, Thanks for your hopeful post. E-mail me if you are interested in discussing some ways in which we can work together beyond the IndyMedia posts. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hopefully the ongoing dialogue (above) regarding the critical issue of race --- will continue to expand. I believe it is worth noting that this topic has generated more comments than any article posted here in recent months. I would like to respond to the last few comments (beginning with Stephanie's remarks of August 8th). Stephanie, I sincerely thank you for your kind comments, which I interpret as a vote of confidence relative to my "knowledge" and "skills," particularly as it relates to elucidating the important issue and problem of race. I don't think that I can make a "power move" alone, but I strongly believe that (with regard to reducing racism in tangible ways) --- if those of us who are seriously concerned about addressing this crucial issue, work together --- we can have a real, measurable impact. I've had limited discussion with a few people about the possibility of us sitting down together, and doing some concrete planning regarding strategic, collective work and responsibility. I hope we can count you in. Next, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your August 13th comments. Even though it may seem that we are not accomplishing anything with words --- that's where it all begins. I hope you agree that it is the only logical starting point. With regard to the first step, dialogue (even if it's not initially productive) can be viewed as "breaking the ice" --- so to speak. As you're probably well aware --- most people, either don't want to, or feel (for many reasons) that they can't engage in open dialogue regarding what I call the 'forbidden-fruit' issue of race. However, I fully understand your point regarding destructive dialogue and division, and I agree 100% that, if there is to be positive, permanent, improvement and change --- the bottom line must be actively "working towards resolution of the problem," but realistically, if people can't or won't engage in dialogue --- then it becomes virtually impossible to work towards resolution. As it relates to reduction of racism, I sincerely hope that all of us who are genuinely interested in and committed to change --- can sit and talk seriously about developing concrete strategies and tactics. A couple of things that you and all of us can do today to start working on racism --- is to make conscious, serious, ongoing attempts to expand our own knowledge and understanding of the complex, man-made, (as opposed to natural) socioeconomic, political, cultural construct --- perhaps via reading (as a starting point), and continuing to engage in open, honest, dialogue here. If you haven't read it, I would recommend Dr. Cornel West's book Race Matters. Also, if we are able to assemble a group of willing souls to sit down together and begin to develop concrete strategies and tactics aimed at reduction of racism --- I hope that you will participate. Carol, the tone of your August 13th remarks above are somewhat conciliatory. I think that's good. However, one very critical point regarding open dialogue on race (as with any other serious topic), is complete honesty. Thus, I must point out that you still seem to be holding on to the idea that you have an exclusive right to define certain concepts --- such as, for example, what is or is not considered as being a "private note" or what constitutes "reasonable social channels." Again, it's not acceptable that you can unilaterally define such concepts. With regard to such matters, legitimate definitions can only come out of discussion and agreement with those who are willing to engage in dialogue. In other words, because you consider a note as being "private," or a particular approach regarding discussion as representing a "reasonable social channel" --- doesn't mean that I and or others automatically agree. We would necessarily have to engage in a discussion in order to determine legitimate, acceptable, definitions of those concepts --- as opposed to assuming that we are in agreement. Also, it is important to realize and understand that many who have been subjected to individual and institutionalized racism for centuries (generation after generation) are very skeptical about "slow progress." In terms of an analogy --- can you imagine (I mean really imagine) how your own position in U.S. society might be quite different if those who waged the Revolutionary War against what they considered as being tyranny on the part of the British --- had subscribed to "slow progress?" In the fight against racism --- we know that changing certain realities will take a very long time, i.e. changing the hearts and minds of staunch, or even not so staunch racists. Yet, as it relates to many other realities, there is no legitimate reason why change should be delayed or held captive of gradualistic belief - systems and philosophies. For example, I can't think of one good reason why strong, immediate efforts and steps shouldn't be taken to element racist policies and practices relative to areas of life such as public education, employment, lending practices, health care, etc. --- can you? Still, it's not likely that such steps and efforts will occur unless people exert the necessary political and public pressure to make it happen. I hope that you are willing to help. As for "violence" --- I sincerely hope you are correct that such extreme measures won't become necessary in order to produce change and justice. Now please don't jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am advocating violence. I am not! However, I do acknowledge the undisputable fact that the U.S. has a very violent history relative to opposition against peoples' righteous, peaceful efforts to acquire justice and equality. In any case, with regard to some realities --- I absolutely reject gradualism --- as I believe that you would do also --- if our cultural histories were reversed. For example, relative to socioeconomic and political justice and equality --- the thought that my children and grandchildren will have to face the exact same barriers, and fight the exact same battles that my parents and grandparents had to face and fight against --- literally makes me 'crazy.' Can you understand why? Lastly, with regard to Nancy's comments, and the issue of racism --- I believe that she demonstrates one of the most responsible acts that white people can engage in, that is --- to openly and constructively confront, and attempt to teach other whites. I am reminded of the fact that a white student once approached one of the U.S.A.'s and world's most outstanding thinkers and leaders (the late Malik El Shabazz, better known to most as Malcolm X), and asked him what could she do to help fight racism. At the time his response was "nothing," but as he thought more deeply about the serious question that the student had posed --- he reportedly looked for her later to tell her that one of the greatest services she could provide in the struggle against racism was to educate other whites about the 'forbidden-fruit' issue. This still holds true today. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerned Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> How many people do you really think want to read on this very important issue in this fashion? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> To: unidentified "Concerned Citizen" above, I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you could elaborate --- I might be able to address your concern. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by concercerned citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> We are spending TOO much time with dialog such as this. It is this type of thing that keeps it going. This will do nothing to solve or educate, which is what we need to focus on. This breeds arguement and disagreement. What good is it doing besides feeding racism a full course meal? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> i'd like to join this discussion </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> check </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to howard and all, several points- 1)howard is not motivated by hatred. he is motivated by what he believes in. that is social justice, and the right for all people to live a decent a safe life. to see our childdren grow with hope and opportunity. 2) we are cut out of the process not by how we say whay we say, but by what we say..plain and simple.....we can be as nice as we can be..say please and thank you all day long..it means nothing..certain individuals and institution don't want to talk about what needs to be talked about... 3)one's involvement should not depend on clever arguements and debates...do people like carol have to be out-debated before she takes up the cause...isn't a child lying dead in the street enough? weren't the lynchings of the 19th and 20th centuries enough? wasn't emmett till enough? wasn't little rock and selma enough? isn't our prison population enough? isn't the dismal graduation rates of urban schools enough? it's time to get out of the safe mode. and believe me it will be nowhere as dangerous as the conditions so many of our children live in everyday. do you have the courage or don't you..it really is the only discussion............ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hi Jim, Nice too hear from you. I couldn't agree more with all that you wrote. Do you have any ideas on how we can move this discussion off of the internet and into a face-to-face, ongoing, productive dialogue that will result in some concrete action? Concerned Citizen, I hear you about the possible futility of the dialogue. Do you have any suggestions regarding the same question I posted to Jim? Nancy </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> hi nancy, call a face to face and see who comes. have a call to action and see who's willing...i don't see any other way..we should set somthing up that is more than a quick chat..the point would be to get the committment to act. maybe a church would give us a hand.. and sooner than latter...is everyone reading this willing?..or does this need a lengthy discussion as well? jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> New Life Fellowship Presents: Race - The power of an Illusion A Film and discussion on Racism in three parts! Time: 6:30 - 8:30 pm Where: New Life Fellowship Church 330 Wellington Avenue Come and join us for a film and living room discussion on recovering from/dismantling racism and creating a more just world for all! For more information: Call 436-0085 Presenter: Myra Brown When: Wed August 17, 24, & 31st To: unidentified, "concerned citizen" above, First, I must tell you that it is not easy to engage in discussion with people who (for whatever reason) won't even identify themselves, but then, I guess anonymous discussion is slightly better than no discussion at all. With regard to your latter comments above --- how anyone could possibly present a credible argument to support the idea that "we are spending Too much time" discussing racism --- is beyond comprehension. On the contrary, rarely are we able to get people, especially individuals from different racial backgrounds, to engage in open, honest dialogue about the forbidden fruit issue of race. I repeat --- rarely! "Dialogue such as this" represents the only logical, first-step toward educating people, especially as it relates to understanding the structural nature and functioning of racism. With regard to this critical issue --- there is probably no way to "educate," and certainly we can't realistically raise the possibility that the problem can be "solved" --- without having dialogue. It is also very important to realize and understand that it is probably impossible to avoid "argument" in the process of seriously and openly discussing racism, which is as old as U.S. society itself, and which has caused, and is still causing untold destruction within peoples' lives. If we intend to make real, permanent, progress --- we can't be afraid of constructive "argument," which helps us to gain clarity, knowledge, and understanding. Jim: Thank you for cutting the issues crystal clear. Again, in my view, with regard to working against racism --- white colleagues such as you and Nancy are engaged at the highest level of responsibility. I agree with you 100% that it is time to go beyond talking-the-talk. It is in fact time for all of us who claim to be serious about change --- to begin walking-the-walk. Thus, I unequivocally support the idea of a call to action. Let's try to pull together a planning group soon. Mean while, there is a non-threatening event, which all of us can participate in TODAY. See the information above. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerened Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Jim, What I meant by "wasting time" is that this type of communication is really not effective. So in a way you agree with me by putting out a call for a face to face meeting? I was also unaware that you and nancy were colluges of Mr. Eagles. Am I really the only person who does'nt know Mr. Eagle? Racism is a learned trait that effects every race on this planet. Yes, some are more so than others. I think that the end of racism starts at home with what we are teaching their children. Nothing beats what children grow up knowing. Unfortnatly there are people who feel differently and racism is allowed to thrive. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to concerned citizen- you need to identify yourself.. also, the fight against institutionalized racism can't wait for all of us as individuals to "free our minds"...yes, we must teach our children the values we see as important, but what happens to those suffering now? shall they wait until future generations grow up and hopefully get in positions of power and become enlightened, aquarian-age leaders...sorry........peace, love , woodstock...almost 40 years on..time to get real................ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy Cuminale <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Concerned Citizen, I understand your frustration with internet dialogue --- and dialogue in general! As Jim alluded to, almost 40 years after the Modern Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., and look where we are. Sadly, there are only a few of us discussing this on an internet board. And sadly, the film/discussion on racism that both Jim and I attended last night was poorly attended. That church should have been overflowing with people, but it wasn't. Jim, Howard, and anyone else reading, I believe it is time to call for a 'face to face' meeting. There is so much work to be done. People DO need to dialogue face to face, but dialogue is not enough. Action is what is needed --- all of us stepping out and fighting full force and consistently. Concerned Citizen, I believe you identified one of the most important aspects of racism --- that it is LEARNED. It is possible to UNLEARN it. Are you willing to work with us and any other interested individuals/groups? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Isn't it interesting, to say the least (now that peop </td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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 #markup (String, 66168 characters ) Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism.</p...
 
 Need for open, honest dialogue on Racism. <table cellspacing="0" width="216" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Commentary :: Racism </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle Email: </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> One of the most critical issues within U.S. society, which nearly everyone agrees exists, is individual and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other --- but we rarely talk openly, especially across racial lines, regarding the perpetuation and functionality of racism. Lets talk. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: Carol Lansing To: Howard Eagle Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: RE: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES "If I accused the Democrat and Chronicle, and other, white dominated and controlled media of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness ---would I be wrong?" Yup, you could be wrong. It's entirely possible that you aren't as right as you think you are. I might not be as right as I think I am. Imperfection sucks. Whatever it is that you believe, Howard, you believe it with all you heart. But your incorrigible hatred, for all that is not in total agreement with you, overpowers any good that you're trying to accomplish (if, in fact, you're trying to accomplish some good). I didn't "reply all" because I figured you'd forward this to everyone with a three-page response. Knock yerself out. Carol, You are correct regarding your hypothetical idea that I "could be wrong" relative to the Democrat and Chronicle, and other white dominated and controlled media being guilty of individual and institutionalized racism, and perpetuating racial divisiveness. I acknowledge your hypothetical argument, but the fact is that I am not wrong, especially as it relates to institutionalized racism. If you weren't so blinded by your own ignorance and racism --- you wouldn't dare have the unmitigated gall to argue about this well established fact. Also, if you weren't so blind and ignorant, and if your mind was the least bit open --- I would take the time and energy to teach you. This concrete issue and reality doesn't have anything to do with "imperfection." Instead, it is about knowledge and understanding. I am issuing an open challenge to you --- to provide one, single, iota of proof regarding your slanderous charge concerning my so-called "incorrigible hatred." Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's. I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. Perhaps someone among them can find the time to teach you about the substance of something that you are full of, but know little about, i.e. RACISM. I welcome all comments. In fact, the more --- the merrier. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> This work is in the public domain. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> <h2>Comments</h2> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Add a quick comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Title </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Your name Your email </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Comment </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Text Format </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I am not going to bother with forwarding your shallow, baseless rhetoric "to everyone." However, I am going to send it to some people whom I believe know you. I don't know Carol so I do not know why I received this e-mail. I expressed my concern privately to Howard to which he replied " I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, it wasn't my intent to slander you, especially since I sent my note only to you. I just wanted to suggest that your essays are so intense that you prohibit rational discourse. Even if I wasn't blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow, I still couldn't have a rational discussion with you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Paige, With regard to your comments above, it was disingenuous to have posted only part of the correspondence between you and me. Thus, I have included the complete version below. From: To: Sent: Subject: I don't know Carol and I don't know you except in passing and from what I have read here. I dislike getting e-mails that were meant to be private comments and wish that everyone would just address their e-mails to those who sent the original. I think that the indymedia lists should be used for indymedia events and not for personal e-mails. Thanks, Paige Re: [imc-rochester] Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:14 AM From: Howard Eagle To: d paige Like yourself, I don't know Carol, and I don't know you (not even in passing). With all due respect, I reserve the right to determine which e-mails I will share with others via the Indymedia lists. As far as I know, there are no restrictions relative to Indymedia lists being used exclusively "for indymedia events and not for [so-called] personal e-mails." In my humble view --- racism (in all forms, i.e. individual and institutional) is, or should be as much a community concern as is violence, crime, education, and other such critical issues. I believe that racism is an issue that we (the community) need to stop attempting to downplay and ignore, i.e. sticking our heads in the sand, and hoping that it will go away --- before it blows up in our faces. This is why I share information regarding this potentially volatile issue. I know it's difficult for many, but we need to talk about it. Don't you agree? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Paige <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> You're right! I should have posted the whole e-mail but I only posted the parts that were relevant to my comment as to avoid bringing in comments that were not relevant to to what I had written to you. I had just said that I did not want to receive e-mails that should have remained between the two parties. It appears that you have again solved that problem. Thanks so much Howard for rectifying my error. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your comments above, and your claim that you "sent [your] note only to [me]" --- slander is not dependent upon the number of people who are aware that it occurred. I want to suggest to you (again) that none of us have a monopoly on defining concepts such as "rational discourse." I also need to clarify the point that my comments regarding your blindness, ignorance, and shallowness represent a specific reference to the issue of racism. I am sure that you are not blind, ignorant, and/or shallow about all things, but with regard to racism, if the shoe fits, you have to wear it --- unless you are willing to learn --- and in order for that to happen, it's highly likely that you will need to discontinue unilateral efforts to define conditions under which dialogue or "discussion" can occur --- regardless of how "intense" it might be. As it relates to the 'issue' of "intensity" --- can you imagine what it is like being a strong, proud, knowledgeable member of a racially oppressed nationality and cultural group, in which all who are not docile and subservient are frowned upon and constant targets of skillfully orchestrated alienation by those who dominate and control society (politically, socioeconomically and culturally)? If you will engage me for a moment --- let me put the latter question to you in a different way: Can you honestly imagine waking up tomorrow morning as a black person --- with a keen sense of and commitment to justice, and one who is not willing to be subjugated or act inferior to, or take crap from anyone --- regardless of their race, class, status, or whatever? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine being constantly subjected to racism, especially in its institutional form? Can you really imagine these things? I wonder if you are aware of the fact that many researchers and doctors (of various races) have concluded that stress --- resulting from ongoing subjection to racism (along with of course, grossly inadequate health care for grossly disproportionate numbers of black people) is a major, contributing factor toward disproportionate instances of high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes among African Americans? So, we can legitimately make the statement that racism functions in ways that contributes to death among black people in the U.S. --- not only in the manner mentioned above, but in many other ways as well. For example, who is likely to have more stress --- someone who is gainfully employed, or someone who is willing to work, but cant' find a job at all, or can't find a job that pays decent wages? I cite this example in hopes that it will encourage you to at least pause and consider the fact that unemployment among black people in the U.S. is two or three times higher than among whites. Why are such grossly disproportionate numbers of black people, especially black men, locked away in the jails and prisons of this nation? Why are black people five or six times less likely to be able to secure loans from banks than whites are? Why are whites two or three times more likely than black people are to complete high school and obtain college degrees? I could go on citing these types of examples and questions for at least several pages. Do you think this reality might have anything to do with racism? Carol, the bottom line is that it's not likely that you will ever learn much about the functioning and impact of individual and institutional racism (assuming you want to learn) --- unless you abandon your apparent belief that you have a right and privilege to unilaterally define the parameters in which so called "rational discussion" can occur. If you need ground rules in order to have a discussion about racism --- that's understandable (considering how uncomfortable it seems to be for many to engage in open, honest dialogue regarding this critical issue). However, you can't unilaterally dictate the ground rules, especially if those whom you're engaged in discussion with --- are the victims and experts on the issue. Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Howard, you're concerned that racism will blow up in our faces. You may have established this incontrovertable fact somewhere along the line, but I'm blind, ignorant, racist, and shallow. So tell us what will happen, oh prophetic one. Is there a neighborhood that I should avoid? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by The Voice non <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Oh Carol" Carol" who ever you are, sounds like you wanna be a shining star on your shallow, baseless, rhetoric excuses.May be one day this sickness you suffer from called, "generational curse" of racism, and denial, will surely be your worse night mare If you don't rush and get help. Maybe you'll even benefit from some mental meds, because it sounds like you need some internal healing on the inside, with your counterfeit thinking that this is a game or, its just Howard's imagination!! I know Howard and, sometimes we don't agree on every thing but, in this case he has brought out some valid points so,you need to get with the program or, change the channel. Your brain needs to be tamed, trained,and rearranged. Institutionalized racism is real and you need to get knowledge and understanding "that" even Stevie wonder can see that! Howard my mom always told me ,you can bring horse to the water but, you can't make him drink ,so stand on whats right, because if you don't stand for something' you'll go for any thing. Peace out </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Carol, With regard to your last comment above concerning the possibility of racism blowing up in our faces --- I have made no attempt to "establish this [as an] incontrovertible fact." On the contrary, I have only mentioned it as a "possibility." My knowledge of that which is possible has little to do with "prophecy" (at least as far as I know). Instead, it is based on the present and past, especially as it relates to concrete socioeconomic, political and cultural conditions. In order to gain insight, clarity, and understanding, you may want to check out the information contained within the following link: If you decide to check out the above referenced link --- you will find another link within the article. You may also want to pay very close attention to the information contained in the latter referenced link. Lastly, if that which you apparently believe is "prophetic" actually comes to past --- the "neighborhood that [you] should avoid" may be your own. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" < <a href="mailto:littlecarol@hotmail.com">littlecarol@hotmail.com</a>>Â To: < <a href="mailto:heagle@rochester.rr.com">heagle@rochester.rr.com</a>>Â Subject: Re: Fw: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "Additionally, I am absolutely, unequivocally, certain that my definition of "good" is as different from yours --- as God's definition of "good" is from that of the devil's." Â <blockquote>Your response to everything is that you are right and everyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but in league with the devil. You don't want rational discourse. That's why you can't get published. Maybe the The Man is trying to keep you down, I'm sure that's true at some level, but that's not why you are shunned by every commercial media outlet.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation. This is clearly demonstrated by your misconstruction and decontextualization of my quote above. For example, the quote contains no mention or even allusion to anyone (not even you) as being "in league with the devil." Please don't attempt to attribute that thought to me. It's your thought and your words.</blockquote> Â <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to "rational discourse" --- all I can do is attempt (once again) to impress upon you the fact that you do not have a right, privilege, or monopoly relative to exclusively defining such concepts. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">I learned long ago to be very careful about making assumptions. For instance, your assumption that I "can't get published" is as wrong as the devil is in his attempts to defeat God. I have had more than 100 articles publish in the Democrat and Chronicle, former Times Union, About Time Magazine, Challenger, City, former Frederick Douglass Voice, former Pride of Rochester, Education Week Magazine, Monroe Community College and SUNY Brockport student newspapers, and the Rochester Teacher. In addition, I am an award winning writer (a $1,000 scholarship and a $750 scholarship). You know, if I didn't understand it --- I would find it strange that I have the most difficulty getting my material published when I am writing about (guess what) --- 'yup' RACISM. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">You have not seen anything in my writings about "the man trying to keep [me] down." On the contrary, my emphasis has been on "the man" utilizing his institutional power and authority to keep an entire race down. And the best response that you can come up with is that you are "sure that's true at some level." I sure would like to hear your explanation of the "level" at which you are "sure" this occurs, i.e. "the man trying to keep [not me exclusively, but US] down." I beg of you --- please explain this. See, this is another example of why we need to have rational discourse --- so that those among the ignorant, uninformed and misinformed (whom are willing to learn) --- can gain some clarity, concrete knowledge and understanding regarding the pervasive nature, impact, and functioning of individualized and institutionalized racism, which are inseparable from each other. </blockquote> </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> From: "Carol Lansing" To: Subject: RE: CORRUPT JOURNALISTIC PRACTICES Â "I am beginning to think that you may have some very serious issues relative to processing and/or comprehending information. Either that, or you are intentionally continuing down a calculated path of slanderous misinformation." Â <blockquote>Howard, there is one definition that I will argue about today, "slander". In my opinion, I can't slander you in a private note. I can't damage your reputation in a private note. If you want to forward our conversations to others, that's your choice, but if you're concerned about slander, edit out the accusations.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Carol,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">It seems that "arguing" (polemics) is something that you enjoy, and apparently believe that you are good at. In a sense, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble --- because relative to your obvious interest in the art and science of presenting effective arguments --- I don't want to discourage you. I guess that's the teacher in me. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">With regard to your "argument" above --- I assume you believe that it is sound. There are at least a couple of realities, which are indicative of the 'holes' in your argument. First, "slander" is defined as the "utterance" (as opposed to distribution) of false or libelous information that's damaging to ones reputation. However, even with regard to the question of distribution --- the manner in which you 'uttered' false information about me is of course via written correspondence within an open, international, forum (internet) --- in which information can be obtained about nearly anything or anyone --- simply by utilizing awesome technology called "search engines," which are still developing relative to sophistication and capability. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">There are also additional ways in which information might reach the 'ears' of others. For example, we know that the U.S. government has a long standing, well established reputation for electronically monitoring activities of citizens who are involved in working toward fundamental, socioeconomic, and political change. Being the sociopolitical activist that I assume you are (and yes, as I have previously stated, I know that we must be careful about making assumptions) --- you are probably quite familiar with government operations such as COINTELPRO. If you are not a sociopolitical activist --- then our ongoing correspondences must be purely a matter of intellectual sparring for you? </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Again, I urge you to continue your quest to become a better polemicists. However, I am not sure about how much more time I can spend helping you. I think that you may be attempting to take advantage of me --- in the sense that you have probably figured out that as an educator --- it is very difficult for me to ignore teachable moments. </blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Lastly, I want you to know that when I use terms such as 'narrow' and 'shallow' to describe your thinking and/or articulation --- it is not meant as an attack. Instead, I am trying to encourage you to think more deeply and carefully about serious socioeconomic and political issues such as individualized and institutionalized racism, which again, are inseparable from each other.</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Your Teacher,</blockquote> <blockquote align="JUSTIFY">Howard</blockquote> Â Â Â Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> "Ha, HA, Ha" you go Carol the educator! Oh boy simply has an problem, (its called egotistic) I find it ironic that this man constantly seems to be in the middle of chaotic nonsense arguments more less, with woman! Whats really going on? His poor wife must be a nervous mess, even dealing with a man who apparently have some child hood issues against woman and feels it necessary to prove his educational skills succeeds hers by, trying to belittle every and, any woman he come in contact with. Thats totally ludicrous to be that insecure but, I must say carol you are a very articulate woman and when I grow up, I want to be just like you. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, Obviously, whether one is male or female, has nothing to do with being ignorant. Have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Yes sir, you're right, but I personally think, it would be more gentlemen like to back down some times and let a lady have her way, especially when you have long proven your point. I feel its ignorant to try to prove a point to some one who's kind of agreeing with you but, in a different way. Have it ever occurred to you that one person can't argue by their self. Yes I give you that, "you" are a very intelligent Black man who tends to be very controversial at times, which can be good or bad but, you can't know it all, that's all I'm saying. The situation you're addressing is major and, needs to be put out their so, stop waisting time, get a few committed people and, make the media hear you! Howard you are a very sensitive man when it comes down to what you believe but, if every one don't agree with you don't take it so personal and just stand on what you believe. As far as Carol I didn't feel her profile fit (ignorant)The lady is very intelligent also. Thanks for your time and you have a nice day. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Stephanie, I appreciate your latter comments. However, my corresponding with Carol has nothing to do with attempting to have my way, or proving anything. Instead, it represents an effort to combat racism by teaching. That's what I do. Respectfully, Howard </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Stephanie none <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I feel you Howard,and you have skills. When ever you're ready by any means necessary, I know as much knowledge you have on the situation, some body is stopping, looking, and listening. So make your "pow move" and, I believe you can make a difference. Be blessed </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Elizabeth <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Ok, from an outsider's view, what are we accomplishing with these words? I think the ultimate goal, yes, is to bring a better understanding of racism and to help us heal wounds, misconceptions, prejudices, injustices, anger, frustrations, and many more than I'm not even aware of. However my concern is that with these strong words which with we accuse each other, we're really getting nowhere but rather perpetuating the problem. Racism is so ingrained that I don't feel Howard is wrong in saying that the D & C promotes both individual and institutional racism, but now we need to work together and find a way to work towards a resolution of the problem. And by all means, get angry, get pissed, get motivated, cry, yell, do what you have to do - all of us, but we need to have open conversations and open doors and we need to work together. We can't stay divided because we'll get nowhere. Howard, what is one thing I can do today to promote a progressive, peaceful means to start to work on racism? I want to learn, and I want to help. Thank you, Elizabeth </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Carol Lansing <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> I admit that I have been sarcastic at times, but I truly agree that racism is present and harmful. I have tried to point out articles that I believe are so caustic that they hurt the cause, and I'm not referring to any author in particular. I am frustrated that I can't state the slightest disagreement with a civil rights article without being considered a racist. I agree that racism is a scourge of our society. I have been called names here in public in response to private notes. I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Carol, I've read with interest the dialogue between you and Howard. I was going to respond earlier, but wanted to take my time and really think out a useful response (hopefully). You wrote:'....I truly agree that racism is present and harmful.' That you see it, yet struggle with it (as evidenced by some of your earlier statements) is positive/healthy in terms of moving to a deeper understanding of it. I think that one of the things that happens when we as whites begin to examine racism, is that we are often unaware of the very unlevel playing field that exists to start with, and that unspoken 'rules' of white dominance and privilege abound in our society. This is not always obvious to white people, as we are born and raised into a culture in which we feel entitled to dominance/privilege from the very start. For example, think about the news media. You and I can be assured that when we read the newspaper/listen to TV or radio news, a large cross-section of whites are represented, and that the focus is not always on our race. We are portrayed as PEOPLE --- in many different ways. We see white 'heroes', criminals, common folk, corporate execs, politicians, educators, factory workers, union representatives, business owners, etc, etc. Can you honestly say you see equality regarding the images of black people portrayed in the media? And further, of all the images I listed above, how often is the image of white 'criminal' as opposed to black 'criminal' highlighted in the news media, and what message does that send to the unenlightened amongst us? What message does that send to young black youth? I am not talking here of the piecemeal pictures and little stories about the 'good' things that black people do/have accomplished that the D&C and other mainstream news media irritate many of us with regularly. For those of us who can see through that, all we see when we look at the paper is the usual token (and often exploited) black face/faces on the front page with a nice little caption. But what about news from the PERSPECTIVE of black people? What about fair and equal representation of people in the media? It doesn't exist, for the most part. One must turn to 'alternative' news sources to find those. The biggest question becomes one of basic freedom: Can you honestly say that you think black people have the freedom to CHOOSE how they are portrayed in mainstream media? Do white people have that freedom? Back to what I wrote about the unlevel playing field. Because we often don't see (or lose sight of) the fact that we live in a white, male hegemonic society, as whites we often don't have a sense of how oppressive it really is for anyone who isn't white. So when a person of color speaks out about it, some of us can find it infuriating, as questions the white dominance that we've been taught to believe is proper and correct. What we don't consider is how infuriating it must be to have someone else always making decisions about the who, what, where, when and how of your own people in the news media. And to take it a step further, when it involves African American people, the mainstream news media does a more incredible job of often portraying them in a negative light than any other group (also Latino/a people --- example see the recent D&C article that focused on the fact that people were 'behaving' better at this years Puerto Rican festival, and that fewer arrests were made by police!). Think about it: When you see media accounts of Asian people, how often are they negative in nature? I'm not saying that Asian people are not misinterpreted and exploited in the media --- they are, but I believe in a very different way. The potrayal of Asian peoples is stil a part of the piecemeal efforts of mainstream media to appear 'inclusive' of all, yet they are not usually portrayed in a negative sense. Instead, there are nice little stories about the growth of the Asian population, or families that have come to the U.S. and 'made it', etc. But do they represent themselves in mainstream media? Certainly not. You wrote of articles that are so 'caustic that they hurt the cause'. Again, any daily read of a mainstream newspaper reveals many articles that are 'caustic' on the flipside of what you see as caustic. It just is not apparent or in the same form as the blunt, 'out-with-it' (and sometimes emotional) style that you are criticizing. It is covert, as opposed to overt. Covert to some of us, that is. In the spirit of attempting to promote understanding, I must comment on the last few lines of your last post: 'I believe that slow progress can be made through reasonable social channels. Racism will not end through violence or name-calling.' I completely agree with you that slow progress can be made. I think that part of the problem is the idea of what are considered 'reasonable social channels.' Again, what may seem 'reasonable' to you, is often oppressive to others. To break it down more concretely, I will use an example: Many so-called diversity and/or racism workshops claim to be focused on promoting understanding and elimminating racism. Yet most of such workshops do not ever step out of a white hegemonic framework, ie., the same 'rules' that govern in a society of white privilege, govern in such workshops --- even some of those workshops that are presented by black people. Those rules basically say, 'let's talk about racism, but do not expect/push white people to transcend their comfort levels in doing so.' Rarely do such workshops consider the comfort levels of people of color involved. Hence, anyone who attempts to push those boundaries is often disqualifed or scolded. In my opnion, such situations end up dong more harm than good --- they often send people of color away enraged, and white people away with a sense of 'feel good' about absolutely nothing. I raise this because I think the playing field MUST be leveled and more 'diplomatic' (for lack of a better word) in any situation where people are going to discuss racism. There are many ways to do this, and hopefully, we can continue dialogue and explore them more at length. Finally, I am disturbed by your suggestion that anyone is advocating violence in order to end racism. Where do you see that? Who is doing it? In fact, in the entire history of the United States, can you give me even one example of anyone who has advocated violence as a method to end racism? Carol, I admire you for speakling out and attempting to dialogue ---something so few whites are willing to do. Putting yourself out there is good. One of the unspoken rules of race in the U.S. is 'don't talk about it.' Another for us as whites is, 'don't say anything --- you'll get labeled a racist!' It is my belief that racism is something that we as whites LEARN, from day one in the U.S. The ways in which we learn it are complex and all-encompassing. I also believe that because we LEARNED racism, we can UNLEARN it. It is a long, slow, painful process --- an evolution of mind and spirit that is life-changing, but necessary to furthering out the evils of humanity. 'Whiteness' is a mindset --- not a skin color. Let's keep dialoguing. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hello Elizabeth, Thanks for your hopeful post. E-mail me if you are interested in discussing some ways in which we can work together beyond the IndyMedia posts. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hopefully the ongoing dialogue (above) regarding the critical issue of race --- will continue to expand. I believe it is worth noting that this topic has generated more comments than any article posted here in recent months. I would like to respond to the last few comments (beginning with Stephanie's remarks of August 8th). Stephanie, I sincerely thank you for your kind comments, which I interpret as a vote of confidence relative to my "knowledge" and "skills," particularly as it relates to elucidating the important issue and problem of race. I don't think that I can make a "power move" alone, but I strongly believe that (with regard to reducing racism in tangible ways) --- if those of us who are seriously concerned about addressing this crucial issue, work together --- we can have a real, measurable impact. I've had limited discussion with a few people about the possibility of us sitting down together, and doing some concrete planning regarding strategic, collective work and responsibility. I hope we can count you in. Next, Elizabeth, I really appreciate your August 13th comments. Even though it may seem that we are not accomplishing anything with words --- that's where it all begins. I hope you agree that it is the only logical starting point. With regard to the first step, dialogue (even if it's not initially productive) can be viewed as "breaking the ice" --- so to speak. As you're probably well aware --- most people, either don't want to, or feel (for many reasons) that they can't engage in open dialogue regarding what I call the 'forbidden-fruit' issue of race. However, I fully understand your point regarding destructive dialogue and division, and I agree 100% that, if there is to be positive, permanent, improvement and change --- the bottom line must be actively "working towards resolution of the problem," but realistically, if people can't or won't engage in dialogue --- then it becomes virtually impossible to work towards resolution. As it relates to reduction of racism, I sincerely hope that all of us who are genuinely interested in and committed to change --- can sit and talk seriously about developing concrete strategies and tactics. A couple of things that you and all of us can do today to start working on racism --- is to make conscious, serious, ongoing attempts to expand our own knowledge and understanding of the complex, man-made, (as opposed to natural) socioeconomic, political, cultural construct --- perhaps via reading (as a starting point), and continuing to engage in open, honest, dialogue here. If you haven't read it, I would recommend Dr. Cornel West's book Race Matters. Also, if we are able to assemble a group of willing souls to sit down together and begin to develop concrete strategies and tactics aimed at reduction of racism --- I hope that you will participate. Carol, the tone of your August 13th remarks above are somewhat conciliatory. I think that's good. However, one very critical point regarding open dialogue on race (as with any other serious topic), is complete honesty. Thus, I must point out that you still seem to be holding on to the idea that you have an exclusive right to define certain concepts --- such as, for example, what is or is not considered as being a "private note" or what constitutes "reasonable social channels." Again, it's not acceptable that you can unilaterally define such concepts. With regard to such matters, legitimate definitions can only come out of discussion and agreement with those who are willing to engage in dialogue. In other words, because you consider a note as being "private," or a particular approach regarding discussion as representing a "reasonable social channel" --- doesn't mean that I and or others automatically agree. We would necessarily have to engage in a discussion in order to determine legitimate, acceptable, definitions of those concepts --- as opposed to assuming that we are in agreement. Also, it is important to realize and understand that many who have been subjected to individual and institutionalized racism for centuries (generation after generation) are very skeptical about "slow progress." In terms of an analogy --- can you imagine (I mean really imagine) how your own position in U.S. society might be quite different if those who waged the Revolutionary War against what they considered as being tyranny on the part of the British --- had subscribed to "slow progress?" In the fight against racism --- we know that changing certain realities will take a very long time, i.e. changing the hearts and minds of staunch, or even not so staunch racists. Yet, as it relates to many other realities, there is no legitimate reason why change should be delayed or held captive of gradualistic belief - systems and philosophies. For example, I can't think of one good reason why strong, immediate efforts and steps shouldn't be taken to element racist policies and practices relative to areas of life such as public education, employment, lending practices, health care, etc. --- can you? Still, it's not likely that such steps and efforts will occur unless people exert the necessary political and public pressure to make it happen. I hope that you are willing to help. As for "violence" --- I sincerely hope you are correct that such extreme measures won't become necessary in order to produce change and justice. Now please don't jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am advocating violence. I am not! However, I do acknowledge the undisputable fact that the U.S. has a very violent history relative to opposition against peoples' righteous, peaceful efforts to acquire justice and equality. In any case, with regard to some realities --- I absolutely reject gradualism --- as I believe that you would do also --- if our cultural histories were reversed. For example, relative to socioeconomic and political justice and equality --- the thought that my children and grandchildren will have to face the exact same barriers, and fight the exact same battles that my parents and grandparents had to face and fight against --- literally makes me 'crazy.' Can you understand why? Lastly, with regard to Nancy's comments, and the issue of racism --- I believe that she demonstrates one of the most responsible acts that white people can engage in, that is --- to openly and constructively confront, and attempt to teach other whites. I am reminded of the fact that a white student once approached one of the U.S.A.'s and world's most outstanding thinkers and leaders (the late Malik El Shabazz, better known to most as Malcolm X), and asked him what could she do to help fight racism. At the time his response was "nothing," but as he thought more deeply about the serious question that the student had posed --- he reportedly looked for her later to tell her that one of the greatest services she could provide in the struggle against racism was to educate other whites about the 'forbidden-fruit' issue. This still holds true today. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerned Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> How many people do you really think want to read on this very important issue in this fashion? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> To: unidentified "Concerned Citizen" above, I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you could elaborate --- I might be able to address your concern. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by concercerned citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> We are spending TOO much time with dialog such as this. It is this type of thing that keeps it going. This will do nothing to solve or educate, which is what we need to focus on. This breeds arguement and disagreement. What good is it doing besides feeding racism a full course meal? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> i'd like to join this discussion </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> check </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to howard and all, several points- 1)howard is not motivated by hatred. he is motivated by what he believes in. that is social justice, and the right for all people to live a decent a safe life. to see our childdren grow with hope and opportunity. 2) we are cut out of the process not by how we say whay we say, but by what we say..plain and simple.....we can be as nice as we can be..say please and thank you all day long..it means nothing..certain individuals and institution don't want to talk about what needs to be talked about... 3)one's involvement should not depend on clever arguements and debates...do people like carol have to be out-debated before she takes up the cause...isn't a child lying dead in the street enough? weren't the lynchings of the 19th and 20th centuries enough? wasn't emmett till enough? wasn't little rock and selma enough? isn't our prison population enough? isn't the dismal graduation rates of urban schools enough? it's time to get out of the safe mode. and believe me it will be nowhere as dangerous as the conditions so many of our children live in everyday. do you have the courage or don't you..it really is the only discussion............ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Hi Jim, Nice too hear from you. I couldn't agree more with all that you wrote. Do you have any ideas on how we can move this discussion off of the internet and into a face-to-face, ongoing, productive dialogue that will result in some concrete action? Concerned Citizen, I hear you about the possible futility of the dialogue. Do you have any suggestions regarding the same question I posted to Jim? Nancy </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> hi nancy, call a face to face and see who comes. have a call to action and see who's willing...i don't see any other way..we should set somthing up that is more than a quick chat..the point would be to get the committment to act. maybe a church would give us a hand.. and sooner than latter...is everyone reading this willing?..or does this need a lengthy discussion as well? jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> New Life Fellowship Presents: Race - The power of an Illusion A Film and discussion on Racism in three parts! Time: 6:30 - 8:30 pm Where: New Life Fellowship Church 330 Wellington Avenue Come and join us for a film and living room discussion on recovering from/dismantling racism and creating a more just world for all! For more information: Call 436-0085 Presenter: Myra Brown When: Wed August 17, 24, & 31st To: unidentified, "concerned citizen" above, First, I must tell you that it is not easy to engage in discussion with people who (for whatever reason) won't even identify themselves, but then, I guess anonymous discussion is slightly better than no discussion at all. With regard to your latter comments above --- how anyone could possibly present a credible argument to support the idea that "we are spending Too much time" discussing racism --- is beyond comprehension. On the contrary, rarely are we able to get people, especially individuals from different racial backgrounds, to engage in open, honest dialogue about the forbidden fruit issue of race. I repeat --- rarely! "Dialogue such as this" represents the only logical, first-step toward educating people, especially as it relates to understanding the structural nature and functioning of racism. With regard to this critical issue --- there is probably no way to "educate," and certainly we can't realistically raise the possibility that the problem can be "solved" --- without having dialogue. It is also very important to realize and understand that it is probably impossible to avoid "argument" in the process of seriously and openly discussing racism, which is as old as U.S. society itself, and which has caused, and is still causing untold destruction within peoples' lives. If we intend to make real, permanent, progress --- we can't be afraid of constructive "argument," which helps us to gain clarity, knowledge, and understanding. Jim: Thank you for cutting the issues crystal clear. Again, in my view, with regard to working against racism --- white colleagues such as you and Nancy are engaged at the highest level of responsibility. I agree with you 100% that it is time to go beyond talking-the-talk. It is in fact time for all of us who claim to be serious about change --- to begin walking-the-walk. Thus, I unequivocally support the idea of a call to action. Let's try to pull together a planning group soon. Mean while, there is a non-threatening event, which all of us can participate in TODAY. See the information above. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Concerened Citizen <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>) </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Jim, What I meant by "wasting time" is that this type of communication is really not effective. So in a way you agree with me by putting out a call for a face to face meeting? I was also unaware that you and nancy were colluges of Mr. Eagles. Am I really the only person who does'nt know Mr. Eagle? Racism is a learned trait that effects every race on this planet. Yes, some are more so than others. I think that the end of racism starts at home with what we are teaching their children. Nothing beats what children grow up knowing. Unfortnatly there are people who feel differently and racism is allowed to thrive. </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by jim greco <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> to concerned citizen- you need to identify yourself.. also, the fight against institutionalized racism can't wait for all of us as individuals to "free our minds"...yes, we must teach our children the values we see as important, but what happens to those suffering now? shall they wait until future generations grow up and hopefully get in positions of power and become enlightened, aquarian-age leaders...sorry........peace, love , woodstock...almost 40 years on..time to get real................ jim greco </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Nancy Cuminale <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Concerned Citizen, I understand your frustration with internet dialogue --- and dialogue in general! As Jim alluded to, almost 40 years after the Modern Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., and look where we are. Sadly, there are only a few of us discussing this on an internet board. And sadly, the film/discussion on racism that both Jim and I attended last night was poorly attended. That church should have been overflowing with people, but it wasn't. Jim, Howard, and anyone else reading, I believe it is time to call for a 'face to face' meeting. There is so much work to be done. People DO need to dialogue face to face, but dialogue is not enough. Action is what is needed --- all of us stepping out and fighting full force and consistently. Concerned Citizen, I believe you identified one of the most important aspects of racism --- that it is LEARNED. It is possible to UNLEARN it. Are you willing to work with us and any other interested individuals/groups? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle">Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Re: Let's Talk About Racism: How Does It Function? </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> by Howard J. Eagle <a href="#">Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.</a>Â </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="middle"> Isn't it interesting, to say the least (now that peop </td></tr></tbody></table>
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 html (Boolean) TRUE
 
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